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	<title type="text">Noam Hassenfeld | Vox</title>
	<subtitle type="text">Our world has too much noise and too little context. Vox helps you understand what matters.</subtitle>

	<updated>2025-11-12T20:40:15+00:00</updated>

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		<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[How the brain builds your world of sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/podcasts/467048/unexplainable-hearing-audio-podcast-brain" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/?p=467048</id>
			<updated>2025-11-12T15:40:15-05:00</updated>
			<published>2025-11-12T15:40:14-05:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Neuroscience" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[In the 1970s, psychologist Diana Deutsch was experimenting with a synthesizer, when she heard something strange. “It seemed to me that I’d entered another universe or I’d gone crazy or something&#8230;the world had just turned upside down!” Deutsch recalls. Deutsch had stumbled across an illusion in audio form — she called it the “Octave Illusion” [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="A man’s silhouette in black and white with a colorful cross-fade shape overlapping right at his ear level." data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/10/LandingPage_TheSoundBarrier_Episode1_VartikaSharma.png?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
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<p class="has-text-align-none">In the 1970s, psychologist Diana Deutsch was experimenting with a synthesizer, when she heard something strange. “It seemed to me that I’d entered another universe or I’d gone crazy or something&#8230;the world had just turned upside down!” Deutsch recalls.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Deutsch had stumbled across an illusion in audio form — she called it the “Octave Illusion” and you can listen to it <a href="https://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=202" data-type="link" data-id="https://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=202">here</a> — and she realized it wasn’t just a quirk. It was telling her something essential about how our brain processes sound.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Our brain <em>edits</em> the world we hear. What we hear isn’t a direct real-time feed coming from our ears. It’s our brain’s best guess. “Because the brain doesn&#8217;t have direct contact with the physical world,” says professor Dan Polley, “Everything that we perceive as consciousness is constructed from the activity of the brain.”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So what are we actually hearing, when we’re hearing?&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In The Sound Barrier, a special four-part series from <em><a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable" data-type="link" data-id="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable">Unexplainable</a></em>, I explore the limits of our sense of hearing and how we can break through. From people trapped by phantom sounds in their heads, to the quest to find out what silence actually sounds like, to astronomers who have figured out a way to listen to space.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">New episodes will be released every Monday and Wednesday, starting November 3.</p>

<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Sound Barrier #1: The myth of hearing</h2>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/10/TheSoundBarrier_Episode1_VartikaSharma.png?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="A man’s silhouette in black and white with a colorful cross-fade shape overlapping right at his ear level." title="A man’s silhouette in black and white with a colorful cross-fade shape overlapping right at his ear level." data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="Vartika Sharma for Vox" />
<iframe frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=VMP8732898062" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none">The brain’s editing superpower doesn’t just allow us to process the world we hear — it allows people with hearing loss to hear the world again by using a cochlear implant. Noam speaks to someone who lost his hearing and then retrained his brain — using Winnie the Pooh, believe it or not — to relisten to his favorite piece of music, “Bolero<em>.</em>”</p>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Sound Barrier #2: The noise that isn’t there</h2>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/11/VartikaSharma_Vox_SoundBarrier_Episode2-1-1.png?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="A dark, high-contrast image showing the black silhouette of a woman’s head and shoulders in profile against a distorted, wavelike background of rainbow and beige tones. The colorful waves appear to ripple through the figure, giving the composition a surreal, dreamlike quality." title="A dark, high-contrast image showing the black silhouette of a woman’s head and shoulders in profile against a distorted, wavelike background of rainbow and beige tones. The colorful waves appear to ripple through the figure, giving the composition a surreal, dreamlike quality." data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="Vartika Sharma for Vox" />
<iframe frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=VMP3538229909" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Almost 15 percent of adults have tinnitus. They suffer from a persistent, often intolerable sound…that is literally just in their heads. Perhaps even more maddeningly, when many of them take a hearing test, the results say they’re perfectly fine.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">All this has led many people to assume tinnitus is psychosomatic. But new research into something called hidden hearing loss has shown how tinnitus comes from hearing damage that normal hearing tests can’t pick up.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Still, there are so many things we don’t know about tinnitus. Why do some people with hearing damage develop tinnitus and not others? And what can someone with tinnitus do about it?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">On the second episode of The Sound Barrier, we help one of our listeners get some answers.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"></p>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Sound Barrier #3: What does silence sound like?</h2>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/11/Vox_TheSoundBarrier_Episode3_VartikaSharma_SitePostArt.png?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="Black-and-white illustration of a person listening" title="Black-and-white illustration of a person listening" data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="Vartika Sharma for Vox" />
<iframe frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=VMP7636261467" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none">A few years ago, a scientist asked people to sit in a silent room for 15 minutes. After some minutes, almost half of them chose to give themselves an electric shock instead.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">At the same time, silence and other forms of sensory deprivation have been shown to reduce anxiety and PTSD. In one experiment, when mice were exposed to silence, their brains created and retained new neurons. More neurons than when they were exposed to any other sound.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">On the third episode of The Sound Barrier, we ask a pretty basic question about silence: How can something that’s nothing do so much?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">We hear from a researcher who designed an experiment to show that silence is a sound we can actually hear, we explore John Cage’s piece “4’33”,” which shows us what silence sounds like, and we journey to one of the quietest places in the world.</p>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Sound Barrier #4: Listen to the universe</h2>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/11/2-2.png?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="Illustration of a face silhouetted against the cosmos" title="Illustration of a face silhouetted against the cosmos" data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="Vartika Sharma for Vox" />
<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=VMP6760859184" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none">When Wanda Diáz-Merced lost her sight as a college student, she thought her dreams of becoming an astronomer were over. Then her friend played her a sound coming from an antenna at his house. At first, she thought the noise was terrible, until she discovered that what she was actually listening to was one of the largest solar storms ever recorded. That’s when everything changed for her.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">“At that moment,” says Diáz-Merced, “Everything transformed from me perceiving that those sounds were bothersome and ugly. It transformed into beauty. You have no idea. For the first time, I felt happiness in my life.”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">On the fourth episode of The Sound Barrier, we explore what we can learn when we listen to space.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">We talk to Nobel laureate Robert Wilson, who used sound to help discover the first direct evidence of the Big Bang, we hear a sonification of the&nbsp;<a href="https://chandra.si.edu/sound/gcenter.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">center of the Milky Way</a>&nbsp;from scientist Kim Arcand, and we follow Diáz-Merced as she pushes the science of listening to space forward.</p>
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					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[This veteran health official watched Americans lose trust in science. How do we get it back?]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/science/417109/trump-rfk-nih-research-cuts-francis-collins" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/?p=417109</id>
			<updated>2025-06-18T04:38:57-04:00</updated>
			<published>2025-06-18T07:00:00-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Health" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Politics" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Public Health" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Trump Administration" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[Francis Collins has overseen some of the most revolutionary science of the last few decades. He led the Human Genome Project that sequenced the entire human genome by 2003, and then in 2009, he became director of the National Institutes of Health, where he served under three presidents and led the agency’s research on a [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="" data-caption="“We often had to change recommendations because we learned more about the virus, and people began to wonder, do these guys know what they&#039;re talking about?” Former NIH director Francis Collins on people losing trust in science. | Sarah Silbiger/POOL/AFP via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Sarah Silbiger/POOL/AFP via Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/06/GettyImages-1233116743.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
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	“We often had to change recommendations because we learned more about the virus, and people began to wonder, do these guys know what they're talking about?” Former NIH director Francis Collins on people losing trust in science. | Sarah Silbiger/POOL/AFP via Getty Images	</figcaption>
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<p class="has-text-align-none">Francis Collins has overseen some of the most revolutionary science of the last few decades. He led <a href="https://www.genome.gov/human-genome-project">the Human Genome Projec</a>t that sequenced the entire human genome by 2003, and then in 2009, he became director of the National Institutes of Health, where he served under three presidents and led the agency’s research on a Covid-19 vaccine.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But nothing in his years leading biomedical research for the US government could have prepared him for <a href="https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/407586/immigration-crackdown-foreign-students-science-innovation-funding">the disruption at NIH</a> over the past few months. Over 1,000 employees at the NIH were suddenly fired at the beginning of April. (Those firings are <a href="https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-nih-grant-terminations-illegal">still being challenged in the courts</a>, but as of now, the employees remain out of work.) Trump administration officials have <a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/nih-ax-grants-vaccine-hesitancy">barred</a> researchers from studying certain topics like vaccine hesitancy or the health effects of wildfires.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">“I had experienced transitions before, and those were bumpy sometimes,” Collins told me in a recent interview. “But I didn&#8217;t expect science to be under this kind of full-bore attack, which is really what happened almost immediately after inauguration day.”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In the past few months, Collins saw scientists <a href="https://www.statnews.com/2025/01/22/trump-administration-orders-health-communications-pause-cdc-hhs-fda/">placed</a> under communications gag orders, restrained from speaking freely even when no media were present. “You were effectively muzzled,” he says.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Collins, who had stepped down as NIH director in 2021 and had taken over a lab studying diabetes, soon felt he could no longer do his job as a scientist should. He started to worry he might be pushed out. “So I pulled my folks together in a conference room. They didn&#8217;t know what was coming. And I told them, ‘By tomorrow night, I&#8217;m no longer gonna be here.’ And we all cried. I never thought it would end this way. My wife came to pick me up on that last Friday, and I just walked out of the building and got in the car and said, ‘I guess this is it. That&#8217;s how it ends?’”</p>
<div class="spotify-embed"><iframe src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/4Gzfcd5Usa3CqQXTFZZMjY" width="100%" height="152" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="" allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture" loading="lazy"></iframe></div>
<p class="has-text-align-none">Just four years ago, Collins was President Donald Trump’s NIH director. Now, in Trump’s second term, he’s resigning under pressure. How did we get from a world where the NIH was universally recognized as a jewel of scientific research to a world where the government is essentially tearing it down from the inside?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I spoke to Collins on Vox’s <em>Unexplainable</em> podcast about how so many Americans lost trust in science and how we might be able to get it back. Our interview has been edited for clarity and length.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>I&#8217;m constantly hearing that Americans have lost trust in science. Is that fair to say?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I think it&#8217;s totally fair. You can look at all the surveys about trust. Americans have lost trust in almost every institution.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But I think it was more than that. I think Covid did a lot of harm to people&#8217;s trust in science because, first of all, it was a huge, disastrous experience for the world. There were days where thousands of Americans were dying. As one of those people who was communicating with the public about what we knew about the virus and what they might do to protect themselves, we were doing the best we could with the information we had, but the information was incomplete. So we often had to change recommendations over time because we learned more about the virus and about the pandemic, and people began to wonder, do these guys know what they&#8217;re talking about?  </p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So suddenly this has become such a target for an attack: whether science is something that&#8217;s good for our country or not.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Your most recent book, </strong><strong><em>The Road to Wisdom</em></strong><strong>, is all about trust.</strong> <strong>If you were telling the story of the loss of trust and everything going on in the science agencies today, how far back would you start?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">It depends on the particular demographic you&#8217;re talking about. I&#8217;m a person of faith, and certainly people of faith have tended to be among the most skeptical of science, and that goes back 150 years or more — the sense that maybe science is trying to do damage to our Christian faith. That was there certainly well before Covid.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But what group was most resistant to accepting the vaccines? It was white evangelical Christians. I&#8217;m a white evangelical Christian, so those are my people, but it broke my heart to see how that happened. And I think Covid did something, took what had been a tendency for science to be political and turned it into a really big deal. If you were a Democrat, you&#8217;re much more likely to get vaccinated than if you were a Republican. Does that make sense? Not in the slightest, but that&#8217;s how it was.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>When it&#8217;s becoming clear that more than 50 million Americans aren&#8217;t getting the vaccine, one of the most remarkable scientific achievements in human history, did that tell you anything about the pursuit of science and how it works?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">It certainly woke me up to the fact that we apparently had not done a very good job in explaining to people that when science is tackling some really hard problems and occasionally gets the wrong answer, it&#8217;s going to get self-corrected because science is about truth. Science is not just a bunch of people who are coming up with answers that they like. These are answers that aren&#8217;t gonna be sustainable unless they&#8217;re actually true. And maybe here&#8217;s also where I began to realize&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">That&#8217;s another problem that society has that I was unaware of in terms of its severity: the importance of truth, the fact that there is such a thing as objective truth. Not everybody shared that: “That might be true for you, but it&#8217;s not true for me.” I would hear people say that about things that were established facts, and that&#8217;s a road to destruction of a society if it becomes widespread. Unfortunately, it seems to be doing so right now.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>It seems like you believed that all you had to do was develop the vaccine, get to the thing that worked, and then people would take it? Then there&#8217;s this whole other piece of convincing people that you and the scientific community at large didn&#8217;t do.</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yep. I was naive about science communication and how it works. And I was, without knowing to call it this, an adherent to the knowledge deficit model.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>What does that mean?&nbsp;</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">That means that if you&#8217;re trying to communicate science to get somebody to make a decision, it&#8217;s because they&#8217;re missing knowledge, and you&#8217;re gonna provide that. You&#8217;re gonna fill their deficit, and then everything will be fine.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>You just tell them: Here&#8217;s a fact. And now they believe the fact?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I&#8217;m an expert, here&#8217;s the fact, and then they&#8217;ll make the right decision.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But no, it doesn&#8217;t work that way, especially when there&#8217;s already skepticism and distrust. You&#8217;re seen as an elitist who maybe has an ax to grind or something you&#8217;re trying to put over on them, and you may even do more harm than good by going after somebody&#8217;s misunderstandings head-on. They&#8217;re just gonna dig their heels in more thoroughly.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I guess what I&#8217;ve learned is we need to do a lot more listening and really understand where people are coming from, and also be prepared to tell stories instead of going down the road with statistics. But that’s challenging:&nbsp; For a scientist, that sounds like an anecdote and I would never get away with that in the seminar room.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But this is not the seminar room, people. We need to actually find better ways to help people understand what we do.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>You were in charge of the NIH during Covid. You were often the one communicating to the public. Are there things that you would do differently if you could do it over again?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I wish every time that myself or anybody who was putting forward a public health message would have started off saying, “Look, this is an evolving situation. We still don&#8217;t know answers to a lot of things we need to know about this pandemic. So what I&#8217;m gonna tell you today is the data we&#8217;ve got, but we might have to change that later when we get more information.” We almost never said that.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">The other thing is  our one-size-fits-all approach just didn&#8217;t feel like it made any sense to the public. People in rural communities, who were far away from the carnage that was happening in New York City or Washington, DC, as the virus was running wild, were left wondering: “Why do I have to close my business? I haven&#8217;t even seen any cases here yet.” I think we lost a lot of people in states that didn&#8217;t necessarily have heavy academic research centers, who couldn&#8217;t quite imagine how they should believe us because we didn&#8217;t seem like we understood what life was like on a small farm in Nebraska.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">During Covid, my number one goal was to save lives. I&#8217;m a physician. I took the Hippocratic Oath. I assumed there were other people worrying about the economic effects of this and the effects on children&#8217;s learning when they were kept out of school. It didn&#8217;t feel like that was my thing. My thing was to try to keep people from dying. But it became clear to me that that may have been something I was a little bit wearing blinders about. Maybe those other factors about economic harms and harms to children&#8217;s learning should have been a bit more front and center to the conversations that I was part of.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>So I understand looking back on it and saying, “Okay, it would&#8217;ve been more accurate to communicate the level of uncertainty.” To say to people, “This is evolving. We don&#8217;t know.&#8221; Do you think that would&#8217;ve led to a different outcome?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I don&#8217;t know. I wish we could do the experiment, and maybe we could figure out a way to do it in some controlled space.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But  I would say 20 percent of the problem was the less-than-perfect communication of the science, and 80 percent of it was the deluge of misinformation and disinformation that contaminated the conversation to the point where a lot of people stopped listening to the actual facts.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">There didn&#8217;t seem to be any penalty for stating something that&#8217;s absolutely false, though, and I haven&#8217;t heard anybody apologize for that.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>When I think about your willingness to have difficult conversations, to accept responsibility for mistakes, it seems like this is something that most people are not doing. I&#8217;ve heard you mention maybe we could have something like a truth and reconciliation commission. Or a pandemic amnesty on a larger level, where people could really be open about their mistakes. Do you think that could have any effect?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">You know, I proposed the idea of amnesty at an event and the audience blew up. They were not there. People are too angry.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>On both sides?&nbsp;</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">On both sides. They&#8217;re feeling too hurt, too much harm has been done to them. So amnesty, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re there. Truth and reconciliation, people were okay with that. Because they can imagine that other people are gonna have to ask for forgiveness for what they did.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But right now, we&#8217;re so dug in. I hope that this truth and reconciliation option is out there right now. It doesn&#8217;t quite feel like people are ready to go there.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>It seems to me like what we need is more people embracing uncertainty, more people talking about their mistakes. Whether it&#8217;s people with their friends who they disagree with, or whether it&#8217;s the highest scientists in our scientific agencies. How do we get there?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">We&#8217;re a long way from there. When you&#8217;re in this circumstance where there seems to be a real pitch battle between the various tribes, it makes it hard for anybody to say, “I might be wrong.” The fact that I&#8217;ve been willing to say that has resulted in a lot of attacks, even from people who I thought were my friends. They said, “Oh no, you can&#8217;t show weakness like that.”&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Well, yeah, we really do need to do that, but we need to all do it and not just expect a few people who are then gonna get whacked for it. It&#8217;s hard right now, and you don&#8217;t see a lot of that in our country.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>If I were a young scientist and I wasn&#8217;t sure whether I should stay in the field, what would you say to me?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I would say you&#8217;re at a really paradoxical time because this is the most incredibly exciting moment for biomedical research. So many things are becoming possible that I would not have dreamed would happen in my lifetime. We&#8217;re on this exponential curve of gathering insights. So if that&#8217;s your dream to be part of, don&#8217;t give it up.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Now, the paradox is right at the moment, there&#8217;s a lot of negative things happening in the United States that seem to be threats. But the case here is so compelling that I don&#8217;t believe those facts can be suppressed for very long. You can already look at <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/tablet/2025/04/25/april-18-22-2025-washington-post-abc-news-ipsos-national-poll/">polls</a> in which the American public says, “I don&#8217;t think they should be harming medical research.” That&#8217;s right there. Seventy-seven percent of Americans raise that point in one poll.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">That&#8217;s people on both sides of the aisle. There&#8217;s some momentum there.</p>
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			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[The real quest for fake blood]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/410007/lab-grown-blood-james-harrison-science" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/?p=410007</id>
			<updated>2025-05-28T15:11:01-04:00</updated>
			<published>2025-04-23T12:00:00-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Future Perfect" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[In his free time, while working as a clerk at a local Australian railway, James Harrison saved millions of lives — with his blood. Harrison had particularly special plasma: It had a rare antibody that doctors used to make a medication for pregnant mothers with different blood types from their newborns. When this happens, it [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="Blood test for clinical trial." data-caption="" data-portal-copyright="Peter Dazeley/Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/04/gettyimages-2177984380.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
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<p class="has-text-align-none">In his free time, while working as a clerk at a local Australian railway, James Harrison saved millions of lives — with his blood.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Harrison had particularly <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/04/obituaries/james-harrison-dead-blood.html">special plasma</a>: It had a rare antibody that doctors used to make a medication for pregnant mothers with different blood types from their newborns. When this happens, it can lead to the mother’s immune system attacking the still-developing red blood cells of the fetus.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But it’s not like the doctors drew blood one time, found this special antibody, and made a cure that they could end up reusing. Harrison had to keep donating his blood. Almost 1,200 times.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">He was terrified of needles, he had to travel an hour each way to the lab, and still, he kept donating over and over, every two weeks or so. For 64 consecutive years, until he died in his sleep in February, having saved almost 2.5 million babies in Australia.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But the reason he had to do all this in the first place is because scientists still don’t really understand blood.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><a href="https://podcasts.voxmedia.com/host/nicola-twiley">Nicola Twilley</a>, the host of Vox Media’s <em><a href="https://podcasts.voxmedia.com/show/gastropod">Gastropod</a></em> podcast, wrote a piece for the New Yorker earlier this year about <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/02/10/the-long-quest-for-artificial-blood">blood and the scientists trying to understand how it does</a> what it does. On the latest episode of the <em>Unexplainable</em> podcast, she spoke with host Noam Hassenfeld about the quest for artificial blood on the latest. Listen to their conversation below, or in the feed of your favorite podcast app.</p>

<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP9232997612" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><em><strong>Correction, April 24, 10 am ET: </strong>An earlier version of this story misstated the date of James Harrison&#8217;s death. It was in February.</em></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><em>This podcast is presented by Roomba. Roomba doesn&#8217;t have a say in our editorial decisions, but they make episodes like this possible</em>.</p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<author>
				<name>Thomas Lu</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Why do we twitch in our sleep?]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/400062/sleep-twitches-why" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/?p=400062</id>
			<updated>2025-02-19T12:15:58-05:00</updated>
			<published>2025-02-19T07:30:00-05:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Neuroscience" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[Ever wondered what your pets are dreaming about when they suddenly kick their paws in their sleep? Maybe they’re chasing a mouse, or a cat. Maybe they’re pawing at you for treats. Or, maybe they’re just running around the house, rummaging through the garbage, scratching the couch, jumping on beds — all the things they’re [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="A brown dog lies on a white dog bed with his paws sticking out" data-caption="Pets, like people, twitch in their sleep — but are the twitches actually related to dreams? | Morris MacMatzen/Getty Images for Purina" data-portal-copyright="Morris MacMatzen/Getty Images for Purina" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/02/gettyimages-2195880882.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	Pets, like people, twitch in their sleep — but are the twitches actually related to dreams? | Morris MacMatzen/Getty Images for Purina	</figcaption>
</figure>
<p class="has-text-align-none">Ever wondered what your pets are dreaming about when they suddenly kick their paws in their sleep?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Maybe they’re chasing a mouse, or a cat. Maybe they’re pawing at you for treats. Or, maybe they’re just running around the house, rummaging through the garbage, scratching the couch, jumping on beds — all the things they’re not allowed to do when they’re awake.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">It’s hard to say. But one thing is for sure: People have been connecting these sudden twitches to dreams in animals, and in humans, for years.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In humans, during the deepest stage of sleep, we have twitches in our limbs but also in our eyes. These are called rapid eye movements, REM for short. And, the science here is pretty certain. REM sleep is when we are likely dreaming.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In animals, scientists also believe their twitching limbs is a likely sign of them dreaming as well.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">“I mean, we know we have dreams. We know that we are moving around in our dreams to some extent,” says <a href="https://psychology.uiowa.edu/people/mark-blumberg">Mark Blumberg</a>, a neuroscientist at the University of Iowa. “So it just makes sense to think, ‘Oh, movements. Why wouldn&#8217;t they be connected?’”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But then, he observed twitching in really young animals and asked, “A newborn animal has had very little waking risk experiences. What the hell are they dreaming about?”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">If twitching was really related to dreaming, you’d expect that the older you get and the more experiences you have, the more you&#8217;d dream, and the more you’d twitch.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So, to get to the bottom of this mystery, Blumberg began experimenting on newborn rats. In a study, he surgically disconnected the part of the brain responsible for creating dreams.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">“We found no effect at all on twitches. And so I was like, ‘Okay, what is this about?’” If dreams were responsible for twitching, why did cutting the part of the brain responsible for them have no effect?&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Blumberg spoke with <em>Unexplainable</em> host Noam Hassenfeld about how this seemingly small question — why do we twitch in our sleep? — has fundamentally shifted how we understand the relationship between the brain and the body.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Below is an excerpt of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to <em>Unexplainable</em> wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Spotify.</p>

<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?p=VMP9331026707" width="100%" height="482"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>All right, Mark, just to make sure before we dive in here, when I think of sleep twitches, I think of those twitches I get, like, right when I&#8217;m falling asleep.</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Hypnic jerks, yeah.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Is that part of this? Is that different?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">It&#8217;s a separate phenomenon. It&#8217;s more akin to what&#8217;s called a startle than a twitch. You&#8217;re not in REM sleep when that happens, and there are a lot of theories about it, but the fact is it&#8217;s an extremely hard thing to study.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Well, if we&#8217;re just talking about these REM sleep twitches, then how common are they? Do all kinds of animals and people twitch?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I&#8217;ve got a website that collects all these different videos, and what you see across different animals is that the parts of the body that the animals really, really rely on for bringing sensory information into their brain are the parts that twitch the most. So for us, you know, rapid eye movements are twitches of the eyes. We also twitch our fingers a lot when we&#8217;re adults. With cats, you see their paws moving a lot. Ferrets, you see whisker twitches; rats, you see lots of whisker twitches. They use their whiskers to learn about the world just as well as we use our eyes.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>And if all of these twitches aren&#8217;t just, you know, enacting dreams, how do you start figuring out what they actually are?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Well, you know, the first thing you have to do is try to figure out what parts of the brain are producing this. I mean, how is this all happening? And what we started to see when we were recording brain activity is that the brains of neonates, baby rats, were much more active during sleep and much more active when animals were twitching than when they were awake, It&#8217;s one thing to think that sleep has brain activity associated with it. That was a huge finding 80 years ago. It&#8217;s another thing entirely to see that the brain activity is greater. And I mean much greater during REM sleep than during waking.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>And I assume it&#8217;s reasonable to think that all of that brain activity is connected with these twitches, right? Is there a way to actually test it?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yeah, I mean, the biggest problem was methodological. How do you record brain activity in a very, very small baby rat, which was the best animal for doing this sort of work. You have to figure out how to get them in a stable situation so you can drop these very fine electrodes into the brain. And so it took years to get the methods going. But what we started to see is that every time the animal twitches, 10 milliseconds later, the part of the brain that&#8217;s responsive to sensory input for that limb shows a huge burst of activity. So twitch, activity. Twitch, activity. Not the other way around. This is a sensory signal, right? So this timing here matters. If you have a twitch, and then you get a burst of activity in the brain after that twitch, then you have a pretty good idea that that&#8217;s a sensory signal that you&#8217;re picking up on.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Yeah, so like a signal the brain is getting from a nerve or a muscle or something?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yeah, the sensory input. So every time you move a limb, you have sensors in your muscle, you have sensors in your skin and your joints. And those sensors, when you have movement, they produce neural signals that flow up into the brain. That&#8217;s how we know when our arms are moving or when you touch something. We have sensors all throughout our limbs. And so when the limbs were moving, that&#8217;s when we were seeing the brain activity in parts of the brain that are responsive to those types of sensory signals.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Wow. Okay, so you&#8217;re essentially flipping the traditional hypothesis on its head, right? It&#8217;s not dreams causing twitches, it&#8217;s twitches causing dreams, or it’s twitches causing some impact in the brain?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yeah, I mean, obviously twitches are not going to be the sole source of all things in the dreaming brain, but that it is at least providing sensory input to the brain during sleep, that we know for a fact. So it does flip it on its head and it completely changes the calculus of what&#8217;s happening in a dreaming brain.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>So then why would the twitching be happening to begin with? Like, what&#8217;s the point of all of this twitching?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Well, so this is where you have to start to think about what is it that&#8217;s special about twitches, right? The first thing that you notice is that the movements are discrete. And it turns out that discreteness is incredibly important. So imagine that you&#8217;re standing at a switchboard with hundreds of different switches. Let&#8217;s just say they&#8217;re neurons, and then all the wires from all of those switches lead to a whole bunch of lights. So every switch controls a different light, okay? And let&#8217;s say that those lights are muscles. If you&#8217;re sitting at that switchboard and you want to figure out which switches control which lights, you don&#8217;t just start throwing all the switches simultaneously, right?&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Because if you did, you&#8217;re gaining no information. All you&#8217;re seeing is a bunch of lights turn on and you&#8217;ve thrown a bunch of switches. The answer is you throw one switch at a time, you see which light comes on, and then you make that connection. And so that&#8217;s the difference between wake movements and twitches. You know, I&#8217;m sitting here talking to you, and I&#8217;m gesturing, and I&#8217;m moving all my limbs simultaneously, my posture, my neck, my eyes, everything&#8217;s moving simultaneously, right? That&#8217;s waking. One of the characteristics of waking movements is that they&#8217;re continuous, and they&#8217;re simultaneous, and they&#8217;re highly complex. But when you&#8217;re twitching, one twitch at a time, you ping your body. And the body pings you back. And then you know that the first thing is related to the second thing and that&#8217;s the discreteness of twitching. And that explains why these animals are twitching so much. You never grow and develop more than you do when you are young.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>So, your theory is that the power goes out and they&#8217;re flipping switches in a fuse box to see which switch controls which light because there&#8217;s no other stimuli coming in, right? They&#8217;re in a controlled environment, so they&#8217;re essentially doing sort of an experiment to learn their own body?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yeah, exactly. It&#8217;s like they&#8217;re bootstrapping their system. They&#8217;re self-organizing their sensory motor system and it&#8217;s done from within. It&#8217;s a big mystery as to how we develop things like our sensory motor system. How do you actually learn about your body when you&#8217;re a newborn rat or a human and you&#8217;re born, you have no idea how your body is formed. You have no idea how it moves, and it&#8217;s going to be changing every single day as you grow and figure out new things, right? So how do you figure out how to move that body in real time through the process of development? You can&#8217;t prescribe this. You can&#8217;t blueprint this. There&#8217;s no genetic mechanism that can tell you exactly how you&#8217;re going to be on day three versus day five. So you need to have a system that&#8217;s highly adaptable.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>And if twitching is about learning, we would assume younger animals would twitch more, is that the case?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Absolutely.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>And then, I mean, older animals also twitch.</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yes.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Why would they be twitching?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Good question. First, we don&#8217;t twitch as much when we&#8217;re older. But second, some animals do twitch quite a lot. And the part of the body that twitches matters. And this is just a theory because nobody has really explored it with the level of sophistication that we need. But we have to calibrate our systems, you know, over the day we get tired, we lose control, you know, our vision gets worse and worse through the day. And then you wake up the next day and you&#8217;re rejuvenated. I think it&#8217;s possible that twitches continue throughout life, for some parts of the body, for that purpose; to calibrate a weary system. And there&#8217;s some hints out there in the world that this could be happening, including work that was done in humans. But they&#8217;re mostly hints and it needs to be done more systematically.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>And why do you think the scientific community missed this for so long, missed understanding twitches as a developmental process?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Because when you label something as a byproduct of dreams, why would anybody spend their time studying it?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><strong>Like, it&#8217;s just closing off further inquiry?</strong></p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yeah, I mean, I don&#8217;t want to be too flippant about it. Dreams are fascinating, but they&#8217;re kind of a red herring when it comes to studying sleep. There is, to my mind, many, many fascinating things about sleep that have nothing to do with dreams, and the focus on dreams is kind of a distraction from what really matters.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"></p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[What a practical approach to AI looks like, according to an expert]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/370246/what-a-practical-approach-to-ai-looks-like-according-to-an-expert" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/370246/what-a-practical-approach-to-ai-looks-like-according-to-an-expert</id>
			<updated>2024-09-05T12:02:10-04:00</updated>
			<published>2024-09-05T12:02:10-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="The Highlight" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[I host Vox’s science podcast, Unexplainable (which you should listen to!). We’re always looking for the open questions at the forefront of science, so you can imagine that we’ve spent a fair amount of time exploring the potential of AI. We did a whole series called the Black Box last year, which got into how [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="Text on a laptop screen shows a user, labeled “you,” asking ChatGPT for help editing an email to be friendly but professional." data-caption="OpenAI’s chatbot ChatGPT on a laptop computer. | Andrey Rudakov/Bloomberg via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Andrey Rudakov/Bloomberg via Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/09/gettyimages-2166742856.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	OpenAI’s chatbot ChatGPT on a laptop computer. | Andrey Rudakov/Bloomberg via Getty Images	</figcaption>
</figure>
<p class="has-text-align-none">I host Vox’s science podcast, <em>Unexplainable</em> (<a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable">which you should listen to</a>!). We’re always looking for the open questions at the forefront of science, so you can imagine that we’ve spent a fair amount of time exploring the potential of AI. We did a whole series called the <a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/2023/7/15/23793840/chat-gpt-ai-science-mystery-unexplainable-podcast">Black Box</a> last year, which got into how no one really knows how AI works, how it’s hard to predict what it might look like someday, and how it’s even harder to say how it’ll impact our world.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But all that focus on the future misses some really interesting stuff happening right now. I love messing around with chatbots — I use them for fun, I use them at work — but when I talk to friends and coworkers, a lot of them don’t even know where to start with AI. So I wanted to talk to someone who has practical suggestions of how to use AI right now to help me with all kinds of things — brainstorming, editing, different kinds of creativity. And I couldn’t think of anyone better than Ethan Mollick. He’s a professor at Wharton, where he studies entrepreneurship and innovation, and he writes a lot about AI on his Substack, <a href="https://substack.com/@oneusefulthing">One Useful Thing</a>, and in his recent bestseller, <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741805/co-intelligence-by-ethan-mollick/"><em>Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI</em></a>.&nbsp;And while he’s very thoughtful about what the future might look like, he doesn’t let that get in the way of trying to understand how AI can be used in the present.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So, when I was asked to contribute something to <em>The Highlight Podcast</em>, where each month a Vox journalist calls up someone whose work we think the world should know a little more about, I knew exactly who to call. Below you’ll find an edited version of our conversation. Every month, we very thoughtfully remove a few of the extra good parts so that you’ll be moved to <a href="https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/VMP8601503564">listen to the podcast episode</a>, and enjoy this conversation in its natural habitat.</p>

<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP8820890552" width="100%"></iframe>

<p class="has-text-align-none">You can also add a private RSS feed in Apple Podcasts by taking the following actions:</p>

<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Open the Podcasts app</li>



<li>Tap Library</li>



<li>Tap Edit (three dots) in the upper right corner, and then tap “Follow a Show by URL”</li>



<li>Enter your RSS feed URL</li>



<li>Tap Follow</li>



<li>The podcast will populate under the Listen Now and Library tabs</li>
</ol>

<p class="has-text-align-none">What follows is a partial transcript of our conversation, edited for clarity and length. For a longer version of the conversation, check out the podcast. You can listen <strong><a href="https://megaphone.link/VMP8820890552" data-type="link" data-id="https://traffic.megaphone.fm/VMP8820890552.mp3?updated=1725484757">here</a></strong>. </p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">There&#8217;s all this debate about what AI is, whether it&#8217;s super smart, whether it&#8217;s sentient, what it could be someday. But you also write a lot about practical stuff like, what it can do to help us right now. So I&#8217;m wondering if you can just tell me about your relationship with AI and maybe how you got interested in it in the first place.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Sure. I’ve been AI-adjacent for a long time in my career. When I was getting my PhD, I also worked at the MIT Media Lab for their AI group, with one of the fathers of AI, a guy named Marvin Minsky. And I was the non-technical person who was like, how do we translate this stuff to the outside world? And I got very involved in thinking about how we use AI and tools like that for education. So my passion for the last 15 years has been, how do we help people at scale become better entrepreneurs, better managers? How do we teach at scale? So we were building games and simulations, and playing with AI for a long time. </p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">When generative AI hit, I was one of the people thinking about this technologically, and it just turns out that a lot of people weren’t paying attention. So being someone who’s actively experimenting, is part of a university setting, who cares about testing stuff, who understands organizations and education, it just sort of spiraled. So I became somebody who was using these systems, which meant people were talking to me about these systems, when I started publishing on it and doing academic research, and sort of put me in the center of this space.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">How do you think most people are thinking about these kinds of AIs, and how do you think they should be thinking about them?&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So first of all, I don’t think most people are thinking about that very much at all. When I’m in groups of people, most people have not used these systems very much. They’ve kind of bounced off of them. The users are deep users of them. I think there’s a lot of ways to think of them. Again, this is a general-purpose technology in every sense we measure it. General-purpose technology is the rare, once-in-a-generation technologies or longer that influence every aspect of work and life. So part of what makes this a general-purpose technology is, it’s applicable to many different things. I think when people start using these systems, what it means is deeply dependent on context. As an educator, I think a lot about, what does this do for teaching? As somebody who likes building software, I think about this software deployment perspective. As someone who just likes to do creative stuff for fun, I think that there is a little bit of the blind men and the elephant problem happening here.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">One of the things that I found most fascinating reading your book is specifically how you use AIs to help you be creative. I’m wondering if you can just walk me through a little bit of what it is like, the actual process of communicating with an AI in order to help your creativity.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">For me, a lot of it is unsticking, so it’s less about generation of lots of ideas. It’s easy to get stuck on ideas. For example: I cannot make this transitional sentence work between these two topics. So I ask it for 30 versions of this sentence in radically different styles, and that would often unstick or inspire me. Another thing I use, there’s an analogy in the book about how AI training is like an amateur chef. I was stuck for analogies to use, and I was like, give me 25 analogies I could work with that might explain how AI trains in an unsupervised way. And then some of this is just about creative play.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yet there’s a part in your book where you talk about, the way to get a good idea is to have a ton of bad ideas, and you are talking about, give me 25 versions of this or 30 versions of this. I do this all the time when I’m trying to come up with a title for a podcast or something like that, I’ll throw out tons of bad ideas, and I find that maybe I&#8217;ve done 15 bad ideas and the 16th one is good, but those 15 were kind of hard. And there’s a sense in which if you use a chatbot, you can get those 15 bad ideas for free. And that can help. Is that sort of a part of what you’re thinking about when you’re saying, give me 25 ideas, 30 versions of this?&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none">Ethan Mollick</h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So there’s a couple of reasons for doing this. The first is based on the science of ideation, which is volume matters. We actually have studies showing that you need lots of ideas to have a good idea because every idea has variance associated with it, right? And so in a lot of fields, variance is bad, right? But idea generation, it’s easy to reject all the bad ideas. So high variance means some of these ideas are really bad. Some of these are really good, you just need a lot of them so you can pluck the best idea out of that.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">And you can kind of get a sense, right, of the bad ideas. You can be like, oh, now I see that idea on paper. It’s bad. Go the other way.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">And we’re pretty good at filtering these, right? So having a volume of ideas is really valuable. That idea has to have variance though, right? If the ideas are all very similar to each other, a thousand similar ideas aren’t great. So the AI is really good at generating a lot of ideas, and with good prompting, it turns out it generates fairly high-variance ideas as well. Like, part of the reason why you want a group of people brainstorming is to have lots of people come up with ideas. So the AI can kind of work like an individual brainstorm, adding a lot of ideas to the conversation. And so that’s a really powerful technique.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">And then this, to me, just feels like it’s prompting interaction. Right? So it’s giving me one to 20 different ideas of things that I can figure out which work for me. And then I can maybe go back and forth with people on them. I can see what feels good or bad.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Yes. I mean, this is the co-intelligence idea, right? The AI is really good, but it maxes out right now at the 89th percentile of performance. Even in its best categories, you’re better than that at whatever you’re really good at and care about. So this is a co-intelligence to help you figure it out. This is an advantage for you. It’s a prosthesis for your imagination, which is something we have never had before.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Another thing I want to talk about here is not just idea generation, but the editing and shaping process of refining your ideas. And there’s a part in the book where you talk about creating AI personalities to edit your book. So you have Ozymandias and Mnemosyne and Steve, I think? I wonder if you can tell me about these personalities and how they work.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">So I gave the AI character to play with a specific goal in mind. You go through this task of making this sharper. You go through the task of looking for connections. But I also had this character, Steve, which was trying to act like a normal reader, so also trying to make sure, what would a reader think when they’re encountering this, who doesn&#8217;t have a lot of experience but reads a lot of popular science books? And that also gave me perspective because it’s an outside view. So part of this is they’re outside views. You can reject or accept them, but they’re valuable.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Just so I can understand correctly, you had three different AI personalities functioning as editors. How helpful did you find that? Like what were the changes you noticed in your writing from that process?&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">A lot of this is about getting yourself out of your own head and having connections to stuff. So to me, the hardest part is going back and kind of killing my darlings and doing the other loop, and especially not getting lost and making this too complicated. There are a lot of things to explain. I have a lot of ideas. I want to make sure that they have some clarity around them, and usually I accept about a third of the ideas and reject about two-thirds, which feels pretty good. So there’s agency over the decision-making, which I think is an important part of working with AI creatively.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">You can just, at 1 am you can be talking to the AI and be like, give me a bunch of edits. You don’t have to worry about bothering them at all.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Absolutely. And I think one of the great things also, then, is the stuff that would have burned a human reader’s time. The more basic stuff; the AI is not great at the overall big picture. It’s getting better, but it’s not like an editor. But there’s a lot of stuff that the editor may miss, or would burn their time on because it’s less important, right? What about the basics? What about the simple idea that you never connected these two paragraphs together? What about the idea that this could be more vivid? Questions like, should this be chapter two or chapter three? The harder, more taste-based questions can stick with the editor and it saves them their time too.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Okay. So you’re bringing up some of the limitations or flaws here. And I think that’s a huge thing to get into. I feel like most of the conversation I often hear about working with chatbots is just how much they get wrong all the time. I’m wondering if you worry about that when you’re using it as part of your process to write things like a book.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">The AI definitely gets stuff wrong, right? And it gets stuff wrong for a wide variety of reasons that we can go into, ranging from hallucination to limits on knowledge, bad prompting. A lot of different things are happening there. I think that part of what happens, though, is that people who are nervous about AI, for a variety of reasons, good and bad, will often jump on the flaws as a big issue. And they are an issue, right? But I think humans are flawed too. And my standard I often use is “best available human.” Is the AI better or worse than the best human I have access to at that moment? Are you okay with dealing with errors and omissions or not? </p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">I also think that a lot of things you think the AI can’t do, it could actually do. As one example, I posted a few months back on Twitter that I found something AI can’t do. It couldn’t do crossword puzzles. And within a couple of hours, a computer science professor at Princeton was like, no, you just did bad prompting of this thing and they could do crossword puzzles. You just didn’t ask questions the right way.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">What do you think are the biggest perils with this? Maybe either the way the technology could develop or the way people could use this in a not-ideal way.&nbsp;</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Ethan Mollick</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">It’s a general-purpose technology. Even if we leave aside all of the questions about what happens long-term, how smart does this get? There’s going to be a lot of negative effects. There already are. Deepfakes are unstoppable, right? We’re gonna have to live in a world where people are producing involuntary deepfakes of people. And I don&#8217;t know what we’re gonna do about that. We’re gonna have to think about how we deal with that legally. Just in the micro area, like school, everybody can now cheat really well. It turns out homework was actually very valuable. Essays were valuable to be assigned as homework. Now, anyone can generate essays on demand. That’s not great. Like, we have to rethink education about how we build stuff around that. You know, there’s the constant worry that 80 percent was pretty good. Most criminals, terrorists are pretty bad at their job, if they get up to the 80th percentile performance, what does that mean? </p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">And that leaves aside future developments and worries about what these systems can do in the long term. That leaves aside job questions about how jobs get changed, and part of the role of government and organizations that care about this stuff, and the AI companies themselves, is to try and mitigate downside risk. I don’t have control over the downside risk. What I can do is try and find use cases that are positive, increase the ability of the world to do better, solve longstanding problems. So we have to be aware of the downside as well as the upside. I’m an optimist, but I’m a pragmatic optimist.&nbsp;</p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[How much can we actually control inflation?]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/356769/inflation-pandemic-economy-federal-reserve-interest-rates" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/?p=356769</id>
			<updated>2024-06-26T12:25:13-04:00</updated>
			<published>2024-06-26T12:25:13-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Economy" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Money" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[Inflation and the economy are still the biggest issues on many voters’ minds heading into the 2024 election, even though inflation has come down from its dizzying height in June 2022, when prices were climbing at almost 9 percent. Last month, it was a much more manageable 3.3 percent.&#160; But it’s still not entirely clear [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
							<content type="html">
											<![CDATA[

						
<figure>

<img alt="Jerome Powell, in a blue suit, purple tie, and glasses, speaks into a microphone at a podium, gesturing upward with one hand." data-caption="Federal Reserve Bank Chair Jerome Powell announces that interest rates will remain unchanged during a news conference on June 12, 2024 in Washington, DC. | Kevin Dietsch/Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Kevin Dietsch/Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/06/gettyimages-2157345796.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	Federal Reserve Bank Chair Jerome Powell announces that interest rates will remain unchanged during a news conference on June 12, 2024 in Washington, DC. | Kevin Dietsch/Getty Images	</figcaption>
</figure>
<p class="has-text-align-none">Inflation and the economy are still the biggest issues on many <a href="https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_0NJUiMQ.pdf">voters’</a> <a href="https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/47th-edition-spring-2024#key-takeaway--id--1564">minds</a> heading into the 2024 election, even though inflation has come down from its dizzying height in June 2022, when prices were climbing at almost <a href="https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1pv2L">9 percent</a>. Last month, it was a much more manageable 3.3 percent.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">But it’s still not entirely clear what brought inflation down.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In a recent episode of <a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable"><em>Unexplainable</em></a>, we looked at why this is still such a difficult mystery to crack.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">While the jury is out on the exact reasons, there are two basic theories that explain why inflation has abated in the last couple of years.</p>

<iframe frameBorder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?p=VMP9331026707" width="100%"></iframe>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Theory 1: It was the Fed</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">In mid-2022, the Federal Reserve raised interest rates, and soon after that, inflation started falling. Case closed, the rate hike is what did it. Right?</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">The issue is that the normal way interest rates influence inflation is by raising unemployment. Interest rates go up, businesses struggle to hire more workers, and unemployment goes up. But in 2022, unemployment barely changed. Something else was going on.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Instead, economists like Adam Posen of the Peterson Institute for International Economics argue that inflation came down because of people’s expectations. As Posen explains, “If people are sure that the central bank or society somehow will get inflation down in the future, they don’t tend to react very much to movements in inflation today.” People don’t feel the need to ask for raises, and businesses stop raising prices. Essentially, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Posen points to the fact that after the pandemic kickstarted the latest round of inflation, inflation didn’t fully spiral out of control. That’s because the Fed had built up trust with the American public over the years, convincing them that it would act when necessary. When the Fed finally raised interest rates in 2022, it essentially functioned as a reminder that it was in control, which calmed people’s anxieties about rising inflation.&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">“The most powerful evidence for this is that we had the set of common shocks across the major economies, across Europe, Japan, US, UK, Canada,” says Posen. “But in all of them, once the central banks are raising rates, it all just came back down.”</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Theory 2: It was the end of the pandemic</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Economist Claudia Sahm isn’t sold on the theory that expectations are the main thing that brought inflation down in 2022. “A key piece of this is the person on the other side has to be listening,” says Sahm. “Regular people are not listening to the Fed.”&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Instead, Sahm thinks the answer is a lot more concrete: “To me, the very obvious explanation is we are healing the supply problems that the pandemic caused.”&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Sahm says that after the pandemic essentially shut down the economy, it took years for the supply chain to fully come back online. When that happened, there was more production, which meant more stuff for people to buy with their excess cash, which ultimately brought down inflation.</p>

<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-none"><strong>Why this is so hard to figure out</strong></h4>

<p class="has-text-align-none">The Fed hiked interest rates around the same time that the supply chain got back up and running, which makes it hard to assign credit. But there’s an even more fundamental issue here. “Anything in macroeconomics is very hard to empirically test,” says Vox senior correspondent Dylan Matthews. “You can’t run experiments with the Fed.”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Ultimately, Matthews says that inflation — and our economy as a whole — is still so hard to understand because of the nature of money. “Money feels like this very hard thing, but money is also a psychological idea. Money is this idea that we can put numbers on what we owe to each other, even as we understand that these numbers are kind of made up.”&nbsp;</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none">Inflation, in a sense, is a psychological phenomenon. “So understanding inflation, I think, is ultimately about understanding people and how they relate to each other. And that’s the ultimate mystery.”</p>

<p class="has-text-align-none"><em>Listen to the full episode and be sure to follow </em><a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable">Unexplainable</a><em> on </em><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unexplainable/id1554578197"><em>Apple Podcasts</em></a><em>, </em><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/0PhoePNItwrXBnmAEZgYmt?si=15fa56bfe2694b87"><em>Spotify</em></a><em>, </em><a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/1d543407-2a1b-4134-b982-8b0a2a4d30ed/unexplainable"><em>Amazon Music</em></a><em>, or wherever you listen to podcasts.&nbsp;</em></p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[She’s been chasing solar eclipses for three decades. What’s she after?]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/24119250/shes-been-chasing-solar-eclipses-for-three-decades-whats-she-after" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/24119250/shes-been-chasing-solar-eclipses-for-three-decades-whats-she-after</id>
			<updated>2024-04-04T15:57:25-04:00</updated>
			<published>2024-04-04T07:00:00-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Climate" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[On Monday, April 8, millions of people will get to see the Great North American Eclipse. Most people on the continent will see a partial solar eclipse, the sun gradually getting smaller as the moon passes in front of it.&#160; But if you&#8217;re in exactly the right place &#8212; along the narrow path of totality [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
							<content type="html">
											<![CDATA[

						
<figure>

<img alt="" data-caption="A total solar eclipse in Belitung, Indonesia, on March 9, 2016. | Donal Husni/NurPhoto/NurPhoto via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Donal Husni/NurPhoto/NurPhoto via Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25369184/595244018.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	A total solar eclipse in Belitung, Indonesia, on March 9, 2016. | Donal Husni/NurPhoto/NurPhoto via Getty Images	</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>On Monday, April 8, millions of people will get to see the Great North American Eclipse. Most people on the continent will see a partial solar eclipse, the sun gradually getting smaller as the moon passes in front of it.&nbsp;</p>

<p>But if you&rsquo;re in exactly the right place &mdash; along the narrow path of totality that runs from Mexico to Indianapolis to Montreal &mdash; the moon is going to line up directly in front of the sun and completely block it out.</p>

<p>&ldquo;When it happens, it feels like magic. It feels supernatural,&rdquo; says Shadia Habbal, a professor of solar physics at the University of Hawaii. &ldquo;It hits you in every part of your body. You just feel like something is surrounding you. Something is taking you to a place you&rsquo;ve never been before.&rdquo;</p>

<p>When the moon fully blocks the sun, it&rsquo;s the only time you can see the sun&rsquo;s atmosphere, the corona, which is made up of particles constantly shooting away from the sun. &ldquo;Sometimes they&rsquo;re streaming away happily,&rdquo; says Habbal. &ldquo;But sometimes you have what we call a storm or an explosion at the sun.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25369094/1409000218.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="An image from Madras, Oregon, on August 21, 2017, shows the sun obscured by the moon in a solar eclipse. Hanging in a black sky is a black orb, outlined by a glowing, misty white corona." title="An image from Madras, Oregon, on August 21, 2017, shows the sun obscured by the moon in a solar eclipse. Hanging in a black sky is a black orb, outlined by a glowing, misty white corona." data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="The sun’s corona is visible as the moon obscures the sun during the 2017 total solar eclipse. | Carlos Avila Gonzalez/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Carlos Avila Gonzalez/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images" />
<p>Radiation from solar storms often ends up hitting Earth, which can lead to beautiful phenomena like the northern lights. But it can also cause massive problems, like energy grid disruptions,&nbsp;major blackouts, or even <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.02330">taking down</a> satellites.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Despite how much damage solar storms can do to our tech on Earth, scientists are still struggling to predict them. And that&rsquo;s because they don&rsquo;t understand that much about how the corona works.</p>
<div class="wp-block-vox-media-highlight vox-media-highlight"><h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>The big questions about </strong><a href="https://www.vox.com/science/2024/4/3/24119057/total-solar-eclipse-2024-explainers-analysis-updates"><strong>solar eclipses</strong></a></h2><ul class="wp-block-list"><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/science/24105742/total-solar-eclipse-united-state-april-8-path-map-start-time-safety">Why is this year’s event different?</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/24119250/shes-been-chasing-solar-eclipses-for-three-decades-whats-she-after">What are eclipse chasers?</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/science/24119318/solar-eclipse-2024-safety-glasses">How to protect your eyes</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/travel/2024/4/4/24120289/solar-eclipse-2024-tourism-texas-vermont-new-york">What is the economic impact?</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/17/15965422/solar-eclipse-2017-august-totality-awesome">What makes eclipses thrilling to watch?</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/24121090/solar-eclipse-2024-power-grid-energy-electricity-ercot">Will the eclipse affect the energy grid?</a></li><li><a href="https://www.vox.com/science/24117884/when-is-the-next-total-solar-eclipse">When is the next one?</a></li></ul></div>
<p>Even though it extends millions of miles away from the surface of the sun into freezing cold space, the corona is still a million degrees hotter than the surface of the sun. And scientists aren&rsquo;t sure why. Which is why Habbal became an eclipse chaser.</p>

<p>I recently spoke with Habbal for <a href="https://link.chtbl.com/UnexEclipse">an episode of <em>Unexplainable</em></a>, Vox&rsquo;s podcast that explores scientific mysteries, unanswered questions, and all the things we learn by diving into the unknown. This conversation has been lightly edited and adapted for the website.&nbsp;</p>
<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP3512595247" width="100%"></iframe><hr class="wp-block-separator" /><h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>You&rsquo;ve been chasing solar eclipses for almost 30 years. You even founded a group, <a href="https://project.ifa.hawaii.edu/solarwindsherpas/the-solar-wind-sherpas/bios/">Solar Wind Sherpas</a>, whose mission is to chase eclipses. How did you first get interested in studying these phenomena?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>I was doing models of the corona, trying to figure out what processes heat the corona. And I realized that the temperature was a critical piece of information I needed to have. But the data that was available at the time wasn&rsquo;t giving me the answer I was looking for. So, I knew that eclipses were the key observations to get to that answer.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>So the first eclipse you saw was when you were already researching the corona?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes, the first solar eclipse I saw was in 1995 in India, and it was a very, very short eclipse. It was 42 seconds long, but it was probably the most spectacular one I saw. The eclipse happened around 8 in the morning. And when it happened, I saw the corona, these rays upon rays just expanding from the sun, extending all the way to infinity, visually. But we only had 42 seconds, so I couldn&rsquo;t spend too much time looking around or anything. We had to really pay attention to operating the cameras that we had. I thought, &ldquo;Okay, one measurement and that&rsquo;s it.&rdquo; But we realized that one wasn&rsquo;t enough. We had to keep trying.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Where have you and your team been since then?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>We&rsquo;ve been to Mongolia. We&rsquo;ve been to Antarctica. We&rsquo;ve been to Libya. We&rsquo;ve been to Tatakoto in French Polynesia. To Svalbard, you know, northern Norway, beyond the Arctic Circle. We&rsquo;ve been to Syria, Chile, Argentina, Zambia, and South Africa. And this one will be my 20th.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Why do you need an eclipse to study the corona? Can&rsquo;t you do this artificially, put something up to block out most of the sun?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Well, because that doesn&rsquo;t do as good a job as a natural eclipse.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Why doesn&rsquo;t it do as good of a job?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>It&rsquo;s a very small blocker whereas the moon is huge. So it dims the light to the point where the sky is like nighttime.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Ah, okay. Let&rsquo;s say I go outside and I want to study the corona. If I hold up a quarter in front of the sun and block the sun, I still wouldn&rsquo;t see the corona, because the coin is so close to my eye. Everything would be filled up with sunlight.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes. With an eclipse, you get the very intricate structures very, very close to the sun, and you get everything that&rsquo;s streaming away as you look farther away. So, you see this continuous transition from the surface outward that you don&rsquo;t get with any other instruments at the moment.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>What are the instruments you use when you study the eclipse?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Our optical systems are like very small telescopes. But the key element is something we call a spectrometer, which is like a prism when you let the light go through a prism and it splits the colors, and so we capture these different colors. And each color corresponds to a different temperature in the corona.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Is it fair to say you&rsquo;re creating a temperature map of the corona?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Of the corona, yes, exactly.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>And that map is going to help make these models of how the corona works more accurate?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes, exactly.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Are we close at all to being able to use some of these models to be like, &ldquo;Okay, we&rsquo;ve got to prepare the electrical grid, we&rsquo;ve got to prepare the satellites for a solar storm?&rdquo;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Not yet. We have some clues. We know what&rsquo;s causing them, but we can&rsquo;t predict when they will happen. And that&rsquo;s one of the things we&rsquo;re trying to gather some more information from our eclipse observations.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Are we any closer than we were 30 years ago?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes, but we still don&rsquo;t have a full &hellip; we don&rsquo;t have a reliable answer.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>I like that you can laugh about that. What would you say is the biggest obstacle in eclipse observations or chasing eclipses?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>The weather.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Ok, now <em>I&rsquo;m </em>laughing.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>It&rsquo;s true! We lost 40 percent of our observations to clouds.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Wow, 40 percent?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Mmhm.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>So out of how many eclipses?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>20. For example, this would be my 20th. We lost 40 percent. We lost eight.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>I imagine that&rsquo;s got to be really disappointing.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Well, it&rsquo;s heartbreaking, yes. Because, so, many times what happens during, just a little bit before totality, the temperature drops and you have atmospheric conditions that happen suddenly. Once in South Africa, it was perfectly crystal clear skies and a cloud formed smack in front of the sun just before totality. Here was a cloud, it just <em>decided</em> to be right in front of the sun and then it dispersed the moment the eclipse was over.</p>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25369098/1244231401.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="A bird flies in a dark and cloudy sky below the sun, which looks like a partial crescent due to the moon’s obstruction." title="A bird flies in a dark and cloudy sky below the sun, which looks like a partial crescent due to the moon’s obstruction." data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="The moon partially eclipses the sun as clouds largely obscure the sky in Odesa, Ukraine, on October 25, 2022. | Yulii Zozulia/Ukrinform/Future Publishing via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Yulii Zozulia/Ukrinform/Future Publishing via Getty Images" /><h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>So you&rsquo;re set up, you have your equipment, a cloud shows up, and then you&rsquo;re just done? You can&rsquo;t do anything?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yeah, you lost everything. You have no data. And another time we were in Kenya, we had a sandstorm just 15 minutes before the eclipse. We were close to a lake and basically the wind pattern shifted. And then all of a sudden we were looking toward the sun and a colleague of mine turned around and he said, &ldquo;<em>Oh!</em> S&hellip; H&mdash;&rdquo; [Habbal begins to spell the word &mdash; you know which one &mdash; and then stops herself] I said, <em>&ldquo;</em>What&rsquo;s the matter?&rdquo; We looked back and this huge cloud was coming barreling toward us.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>What did you do?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>We covered the equipment. We had to. It was very, very fast. And we were totally clouded out.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>It just seems like there must be a better way to do this.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Well, there are ways. Recently we were in Antarctica and unfortunately we were clouded out. It was really heartbreaking because the sky was crystal clear the day before. And crystal clear two hours after totality. One of my colleagues, he just came up with the idea and said, &ldquo;why don&rsquo;t we fly a kite?&rdquo;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>Fly a kite?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Well, it&rsquo;s not just any type of kite. It&rsquo;s quite large, it has a wingspan of about 6 and a half meters. We attached a spectrometer to it. The idea is that if it&rsquo;s cloudy with a kite, you can go up to 4&ndash;5,000 meters and you can get above the clouds, and we tried it last year in Australia.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>What was it like testing something like this? Were you nervous?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes, we were very nervous, but it was the most exhilarating experience. It was like watching the Sputnik. And the other option we&rsquo;re trying this year is [working with] <a href="https://www.nasa.gov/science-research/heliophysics/science-in-the-shadows-nasa-selects-5-experiments-for-2024-total-solar-eclipse/">NASA&rsquo;s research aircraft called the WB-57</a>. Now that airplane flies up to 60,000 feet where there are no clouds.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>And that airplane, is it flying along the path of totality?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Exactly. The engineers and the pilots of this <a href="https://www.vox.com/space" data-source="encore">NASA</a> project can follow the path of totality.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>How close are we to being able to predict the corona? Are all these measurements helping these predictions?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>Yes, but like any scientific research, you discover something and then you discover that there&rsquo;s a lot more to discover. This is the beauty of scientific research is you&rsquo;re never done.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Noam Hassenfeld</strong></h3>
<p>So, you&rsquo;re just gonna keep on chasing eclipses for the rest of your career?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Shadia Habbal</strong></h3>
<p>I&rsquo;ll keep on chasing eclipses until I can&rsquo;t chase them anymore, and then somebody else has to do it.</p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Brian Resnick</name>
			</author>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Runners can be disqualified for starting after the gun. What gives?]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/23365327/tynia-gaither-devon-allen-false-starts-worlds-science-physiology-human-limit" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/23365327/tynia-gaither-devon-allen-false-starts-worlds-science-physiology-human-limit</id>
			<updated>2023-08-23T11:37:45-04:00</updated>
			<published>2023-08-23T11:37:43-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[In July 2022, TyNia Gaither lined up in the second lane for one of her biggest races of the year: the semifinals of the 100-meter dash at the World Athletics Championships in Eugene, Oregon. The 29-year-old Bahamian sprinter crouched down into the starting blocks. The crowd grew quiet. She waited for the sound. &#8220;I heard [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
							<content type="html">
											<![CDATA[

						
<figure>

<img alt="" data-caption="“What they were trying to tell us, is no human can possibly move that fast.”  | Amanda Northrop / Vox" data-portal-copyright="Amanda Northrop / Vox" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24041912/toofast_final.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	“What they were trying to tell us, is no human can possibly move that fast.”  | Amanda Northrop / Vox	</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>In July 2022, <a href="https://worldathletics.org/athletes/bahamas/tynia-gaither-14362366">TyNia Gaither</a> lined up in the second lane for one of her biggest races of the year: the semifinals of the 100-meter dash at the World Athletics Championships in Eugene, Oregon.</p>

<p>The 29-year-old Bahamian sprinter crouched down into the starting blocks. The crowd grew quiet. She waited for the sound.</p>

<p>&ldquo;I heard the gun go off, and I took off,&rdquo; Gaither says. &ldquo;And then I heard the gun go off again.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>That second &ldquo;bang&rdquo; meant officials had stopped the race. Someone had false-started, and Gaither was surprised to find out it was her.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&ldquo;I thought it was an error,&rdquo; she says. &ldquo;I&rsquo;ve never false-started ever in my life.&rdquo;</p>

<p>Per the rules, Gaither was immediately disqualified. When she tried to contest the call to the race official, he showed her a replay. It didn&rsquo;t show a visible false start. But then he pointed to a number, lit up in red: 0.093 seconds, the amount of time it took for Gaither to start after the gun fired.</p>

<p>Yes: She had started <em>after</em> the gun went off, and was still thrown out of the race.</p>

<p>&ldquo;I&rsquo;m mind-blown,&rdquo; she recalls thinking. &ldquo;You&rsquo;re telling me I&rsquo;m penalized for something I did after the gun went off!?&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>
<div class="wp-block-vox-media-highlight vox-media-highlight"></div>
<p><a href="https://www.cbc.ca/sports/opinion-world-athletics-championships-false-start-1.6527053">There&rsquo;s a peculiar rule</a> in top-level running that says if a runner starts within 0.1 seconds of the gun, they&rsquo;ve broken the rules. The assumption made by <a href="https://worldathletics.org/">World Athletics</a>, the organization behind this championship, is that it is physiologically impossible to start that quickly.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&ldquo;What they were trying to tell us,&rdquo; Gaither says on <a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable"><em>Unexplainable</em></a> &mdash; Vox&rsquo;s podcast about unanswered questions &mdash; is that &ldquo;no human can possibly move that fast.&rdquo;<strong>&nbsp;</strong></p>

<p>Any racer who does is presumed to have anticipated the gun, meaning their brains gave the &ldquo;go&rdquo; signal to their bodies before they heard the sound.</p>
<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP1069988022" width="100%"></iframe>
<p>But is that&hellip; true? What is the fastest possible human reaction time to a sound?&nbsp;</p>

<p>The answer could vindicate Gaither, who feels unfairly labeled as a cheater &mdash; &ldquo;there was no guessing in my start,&rdquo; she says emphatically &mdash; and other athletes who have been similarly disqualified for starting too quickly.&nbsp;</p>

<p>But this question also leads to bigger ones near the heart of the sport. Competitions like track ought to reveal the limits of human abilities, to push through <a href="https://hbr.org/2018/03/what-breaking-the-4-minute-mile-taught-us-about-the-limits-of-conventional-thinking">previously assumed boundaries</a>. But, here, World Athletics seems to have set a limit that might actually be holding its athletes back.&nbsp;</p>

<p>What would be better? Does racing, along with other sports, need greater scientific precision, a better understanding of human physiology? Or does it just need to accept that there may not be a perfect way to define, and record, a race?</p>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading">It’s true runners can’t react immediately. But how fast can they go? </h2>
<p>According to scientists, the basic idea behind the 0.1 second rule does make some sense.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Human beings cannot react instantaneously to a sound, says <a href="https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=GUblyUkAAAAJ&amp;hl=en">Matthieu Milloz</a>, a biomechanics scientist at the University of Limerick in Ireland who is completing his PhD on recording race starts. A long chain of physical and physiological events have to occur, and each component takes time: The sound of the gun has to travel to a runner&rsquo;s ears, the ears translate the sound into a neurological signal, the signal has to be recognized by the nervous system, the nervous system has to send a command to start down to the muscles, the muscles take time to contract, and so on.</p>

<p>A wily racer could get a jump on this process. &ldquo;You can anticipate the gun,&rdquo; Milloz says. Races can be won or lost by hundredths, <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-olympics-never-ending-struggle-to-keep-track-of-time">even thousandths</a> of a second. So an early start can give a runner an advantage.&nbsp;</p>

<p>What doesn&rsquo;t make much sense to scientists is the number World Athletics says is the neurophysiological limit. &ldquo;Currently, we don&rsquo;t know what this neurophysiological limit is,&rdquo; Milloz says. &ldquo;But what I can say is that the 100-millisecond [0.1 second] threshold is not science-based. We don&rsquo;t have the data.&rdquo;</p>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24042531/GettyImages_1409199469.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="" title="" data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="TyNia Gaither competes in the women’s 100-meter heats on the second day of the 2022 World Athletics Championships. | Ezra Shaw/Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Ezra Shaw/Getty Images" />
<p>That&rsquo;s<strong> </strong>not to say there haven&rsquo;t been <em>any</em> studies. The studies on sprint starts tend to be small, and they don&rsquo;t always use the most elite athletes as subjects. If scientists aren&rsquo;t testing the very fastest sprint starters in the world, how would they know what the very edge of the limit is?</p>

<p>A 1990 Finnish study on <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2289501/">eight non-elite sprinters is often</a> cited, and this study did find evidence to support a 0.1 second limit. But other studies have recorded sprinters <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18460990/">starting faster than</a> that &mdash; perhaps even <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17127583/">faster than 0.085 seconds</a>. Other scientists have done some back-of-the-napkin calculations accounting for how long it takes <a href="https://www.basvanhooren.com/is-it-possible-to-react-faster-than-100-ms-in-a-sprint-start/">for a signal to traverse</a> the ears, nerves, and muscles, and concluded that start times faster <a href="https://www.basvanhooren.com/is-it-possible-to-react-faster-than-100-ms-in-a-sprint-start/">than 0.1 second are possible</a>.</p>

<p>&ldquo;I&rsquo;m sure that you can react in less than 100 milliseconds,&rdquo; Milloz says, noting he&rsquo;s recorded it himself in unpublished work. Yet he doesn&rsquo;t know what the exact number ought to be.</p>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading">There’s no “gold standard” for studying race starts </h2>
<p>World Athletics <a href="https://www.letsrun.com/news/2022/07/the-data-keeps-pouring-in-and-it-continues-to-look-bad-for-world-athletics-and-great-for-devon-allen/">has maintained that</a> the 0.1 second rule is based on &ldquo;the science on standard reaction times.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>Other sources disagree. <a href="https://twitter.com/pjvazel">Sports historian PJ Vazel</a>, who wrote a <a href="https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=1062c381-6278-484f-bfaa-df42f4ab70f9.pdf&amp;urlslug=Women%E2%80%99s%2060m%20%E2%80%93%202018%20IAAF%20Indoor%20Championships%20Biomechanical%20Report">report</a> on the history of reaction time for the IAAF (the former name of World Athletics), says this rule actually dates back to the 1960s, and a West German sprinter named <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpusAWku-mw">Armin Hary</a>.</p>

<p>Hary was known as the &ldquo;Thief of Starts,&rdquo; due to his suspiciously fast starting times in sprint races. It&rsquo;s unclear whether Hary anticipated the gun, or just had a very fast reaction time (<a href="https://www-spiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/pfeffer-in-der-kiste-a-b9590a7a-0002-0001-0000-000043067362?_x_tr_sl=de&amp;_x_tr_tl=en&amp;_x_tr_hl=en&amp;_x_tr_pto=wapp">some tests</a> indicated the latter was the case). &ldquo;He was constantly starting faster than the others,&rdquo; Vazel says. &ldquo;There was controversy.&rdquo; Enough so that West Germany pushed for an automated system to be built into starting blocks themselves to measure false starts.&nbsp;</p>

<p>West Germany worked with the watch company Junghans, which developed the blocks. <a href="https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?window=1&amp;space=menu&amp;content=treffer&amp;action=pdf&amp;docid=DE000001524634A&amp;Cl=17&amp;Bi=1&amp;Ab=&amp;De=2&amp;Dr=21&amp;Pts=&amp;Pa=&amp;We=&amp;Sr=&amp;Eam=&amp;Cor=&amp;Aa=&amp;so=desc&amp;sf=vn&amp;firstdoc=0&amp;NrFaxPages=26&amp;pdfpage=16">According to their patent</a>, the company says they performed tests which found that sprinters were not starting faster than 0.1 seconds. That limit became a rough rule of thumb for the next few decades, Vazel explains, until it was officially codified in 1989. &ldquo;It&rsquo;s unfortunate,&rdquo; Vazel says, that people still think this rule was founded on a scientific basis. &ldquo;It was not.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>Scientific &mdash; in the purest sense of the word &mdash; would mean allowing outside researchers to verify the findings in an open and consistent manner.&nbsp;</p>

<p>When Milloz says he doesn&rsquo;t know what the limit is, it&rsquo;s because &ldquo;there is no gold standard,&rdquo; he says, on how to study this. Small changes to the experimental setup &mdash; what type of sensors are used, how they are calibrated &mdash; can yield different answers.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Scientists aren&rsquo;t even sure how, precisely, the official recording systems are calibrated. According to Milloz and colleagues <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01350-4">writing</a> in the journal <em>Sports Medicine,</em>&nbsp;&ldquo;The precise details of event detection algorithms [i.e., how the starting blocks record a start] are not made public by SIS [start information system] manufacturers.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>On top of that, variables like how <a href="https://sites.ualberta.ca/~dcollins/Articles/Brown2008.pdf">loud the sound of the gun is</a>, and how <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5435752/">long runners have to wait</a> before the starting gun is fired can all influence their speed. (Both a louder gun, and a longer wait tend to result in faster starts.) Ideally, World Athletics and outside scientists could agree on how to control for all this.</p>

<p>Vazel says World Athletics needs to be more transparent around how the machines actually calculate their results. In fact, there is reason to believe that the sensors at the World Championships in Eugene may have been recording <a href="https://www.letsrun.com/news/2022/07/the-data-keeps-pouring-in-and-it-continues-to-look-bad-for-world-athletics-and-great-for-devon-allen/">faster reaction times</a> than normal.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Gaither wasn&rsquo;t the only runner at the 2022 World Championships to be disqualified for starting after the gun. Julien Alfred was disqualified for starting <a href="https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/story/2022-07-17/track-field-world-athletics-championships-devon-allen-nfl-philadelphia-eagles-false-start-hurdles">0.095</a> seconds after the gun, and Devon Allen was disqualified for starting <a href="https://www.letsrun.com/news/2022/07/was-devon-allen-screwed-theres-at-least-a-99-9-chance-that-he-was/">0.099</a> seconds after the gun, just one thousandth of a second too quickly.</p>

<p>We reached out to World Athletics about why the 0.1 second rule has not been changed when scientific studies have shown runners can react more quickly.&nbsp;</p>

<p>They stand by it. According to World Athletics, &ldquo;The 100ms rule was initially set as it was determined to be the minimum auditory reaction time.&rdquo;</p>

<p>We pointed out that World Athletics even commissioned its own study <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jukka-Salmi/publication/278022260_IAAF_Sprint_Start_Research_Project_Is_the_100_ms_limit_still_valid/links/55793fdb08aeacff20028f6b/IAAF-Sprint-Start-Research-Project-Is-the-100-ms-limit-still-valid.pdf">on reaction times in 2009,</a> which determined that the limit should be lowered from 0.1 second.&nbsp;</p>

<p>When we asked why <em>that</em> didn&rsquo;t prompt a change, World Athletics replied, &ldquo;The Technical Committee felt that the study, which was carried out using only six non-elite athletes, was not sufficiently robust to warrant a change.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>So round and round we go. Scientists say there isn&rsquo;t data to support keeping the 0.1 second rule. And here World Athletics is saying there isn&rsquo;t data to throw it out either.&nbsp;</p>

<p>At least one World Athletics council member has <a href="https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1127164/pihlakoski-athletics-reaction-time">called</a> for a rule change. &ldquo;It is standard procedure after each world championships for the World Athletics Competition Commission to review the championships and recommend any rule changes,&rdquo;&nbsp; World Athletics told us in 2022.</p>

<p>Basically: They said they were looking into it. Since then, World Athletics has updated its rules, very slightly. Now, if there&rsquo;s any doubt about the call from the automated sensors, referees <a href="https://jamaica.loopnews.com/content/major-rule-changes-unveiled-world-athletics-ahead-world-champs">can allow athletes</a> to run and appeal afterwards. So enforcement is a little more flexible. But starting faster than a tenth of a second is still considered to be a false start.</p>

<p>Still, one thing seems clear: We don&rsquo;t know how fast a runner can start, but it seems likely to be faster than 0.1 seconds.</p>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading">What would a fairer race look like?</h2>
<p>There&rsquo;s some evidence that the 0.1 second limit and the strict rules surrounding it might be holding racers back from starting as fast as possible. Over the years, the costs of false starting have increased. It&rsquo;s now the case that a single false start can get a runner disqualified from a race. As the rules have grown stricter, <a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2012.746724?journalCode=rjsp20">studies suggest racers have started more cautiously</a>. One study found starts in international championships slowed down by <a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2012.746724?journalCode=rjsp20">20 percent from 1997 to 2011</a>.&nbsp;</p>

<p>So what&rsquo;s the answer here? Milloz thinks the sport could benefit from more science and standardization. He would like to bring the top athletes in the world to a lab to test their fastest possible starts on machines and with methods that all stakeholders can agree are the &ldquo;gold standard&rdquo; for the sport and science. &ldquo;Gather a lot of response times,&rdquo; Milloz says. &ldquo;And try to plot the distribution,&rdquo; to more clearly see what time would be an unacceptable outlier.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>

<p>But even then, there could still be some questions about the start of a race. Often in sports, the more you zoom into a moment with technology, the more complicated calls become. When you look more closely at starts, Milloz says, you&rsquo;ll find the first parts of the body to move after the gun goes off are not the feet on the starting blocks, but the hands, pushing off the ground. Might it be fairer to record starts from the hands, and not the feet? Milloz says the hands can start moving 50 milliseconds before the feet.&nbsp;</p>
<img src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24042539/GettyImages_1241968278.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" alt="" title="" data-has-syndication-rights="1" data-caption="Devon Allen is disqualified ahead of the men’s 100-meter hurdles final on day three of the World Athletics Championships in 2022. | Martin Rickett/PA Images via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Martin Rickett/PA Images via Getty Images" />
<p>But why stop at the hands? Might a more perfect start detection system, in the future, actually tap into a racer&rsquo;s brain to see when they first gave their body the motor command to run? Deciding how to record the start of a race comes with some choices to make about when and where it starts.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&ldquo;There is no perfect way to record something,&rdquo; Milloz says. Every estimate will come with some range of error, or with some careful choices to make. &ldquo;There is always some limitation.&rdquo;</p>

<p>Perhaps anticipating the gun could be a part of the sport. But from our reporting, this seems like an unpopular idea that would lead to more false starts, more race restarts, and messier races overall. Perhaps World Athletics could encourage officials to have more discretion to overrule the computerized start system when the margins are tiny. But then, with discretion, comes inconsistency.</p>

<p>Ultimately, even if a lower reaction time threshold is set &mdash; depending on where and how it&rsquo;s set &mdash; it&rsquo;s still possible someone could come along one day and break it.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Each choice here comes with a compromise.</p>

<p>The idea of perfect fairness in sports may simply be impossible. &ldquo;There&rsquo;s no way to make sports perfectly fair,&rdquo; says sports writer <a href="https://joeposnanski.substack.com/">Joe Posnanski</a>. &ldquo;What you want to do is make it fair enough that people have faith in it.&rdquo;</p>

<p>At the very least, World Athletics can start by making the reaction time limit lower than 0.1 seconds. Given that race starts may always be a gray area, it may be impossible to prevent all false accusations of cheating. But hopefully it will at least be possible to lower the number of athletes unfairly disqualified.</p>

<p>Since the World Championships, Gaither&rsquo;s false start has weighed on her. &ldquo;I&rsquo;ve kind of been experiencing a little PTSD with it,&rdquo; she says, calling the incident embarrassing. &ldquo;Now, when I get to my blocks, the only thing that I&rsquo;m thinking about in my blocks is &lsquo;be patient.&rsquo; That&rsquo;s literally the thing that&rsquo;s been engraved in my head since that moment. Be patient because you can&rsquo;t afford for that to happen again.&rdquo;</p>

<p>We told Gaither a synopsis of our reporting: That it&rsquo;s scientifically plausible she started that quickly. &ldquo;I really appreciate that,&rdquo; she says.</p>

<p>&ldquo;Our sport,&rdquo; she says, &ldquo;is nowhere near perfect.&rdquo; But loving it means wanting to see it get better. &rdquo;I&rsquo;m one of the true lovers of this sport,&rdquo; she says. &ldquo;And, you know, as big of a blow as that was, it hasn&rsquo;t changed.&rdquo;</p>

<p><em><strong>Update: August 23, 2023, 11:30 am ET: </strong>This story, originally published in September 2022, has been updated to include a slight change in the World Athletics rules on disqualifying athletes for starting too fast. </em></p>
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					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Even the scientists who build AI can’t tell you how it works]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/2023/7/15/23793840/chat-gpt-ai-science-mystery-unexplainable-podcast" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/2023/7/15/23793840/chat-gpt-ai-science-mystery-unexplainable-podcast</id>
			<updated>2023-07-13T17:04:20-04:00</updated>
			<published>2023-07-15T07:00:00-04:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[Artificial intelligence systems like ChatGPT can do a wide range of impressive things: they can write passable essays, they can ace the bar exam, they&#8217;ve even been used for scientific research. But ask an AI researcher how it does all this, and they shrug.&#160; &#8220;If we open up ChatGPT or a system like it and [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="" data-caption="Artificial intelligence systems like ChatGPT might disrupt or revolutionize many industries. But that doesn’t mean we understand what they’re doing. | Frank Rumpenhorst/Picture Alliance via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Frank Rumpenhorst/Picture Alliance via Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24786993/1246656790.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,104.09560413164,104.09726848767" />
	<figcaption>
	Artificial intelligence systems like ChatGPT might disrupt or revolutionize many industries. But that doesn’t mean we understand what they’re doing. | Frank Rumpenhorst/Picture Alliance via Getty Images	</figcaption>
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<p>Artificial intelligence systems like ChatGPT can do a wide range of impressive things: they can write passable essays, they can ace the bar exam, they&rsquo;ve even been used for scientific research. But ask an <a href="https://www.vox.com/2023/4/28/23702644/artificial-intelligence-machine-learning-technology" data-source="encore">AI</a> researcher how it does all this, and they shrug.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&ldquo;If we open up ChatGPT or a system like it and look inside, you just see millions of numbers flipping around a few hundred times a second,&rdquo; says AI scientist <a href="https://cims.nyu.edu/~sbowman/">Sam Bowman</a>. &ldquo;And we just have no idea what any of it means.&rdquo;</p>

<p>Bowman is a professor at NYU, where he runs an AI research lab, and he&rsquo;s a researcher at Anthropic, an AI research company. He&rsquo;s spent years building systems like ChatGPT, assessing what they can do, and studying how they work.&nbsp;</p>

<p>He explains that ChatGPT runs on something called an artificial neural network, which is a type of AI modeled on the human brain. Instead of having a bunch of rules explicitly coded in like a traditional computer program, this kind of AI learns to detect and predict patterns over time. But Bowman says that because systems like this essentially teach themselves, it&rsquo;s difficult to explain precisely how they work or what they&rsquo;ll do. Which can lead to unpredictable and even risky scenarios as these programs become more ubiquitous.</p>

<p>I spoke with Bowman on <a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable"><em>Unexplainable</em></a>, Vox&rsquo;s podcast that explores scientific mysteries, unanswered questions, and all the things we learn by diving into the unknown. The conversation is included in a new two-part series on AI: The Black Box.</p>
<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP4126210814" width="100%"></iframe>
<p><em>This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.</em></p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>How do systems like ChatGPT work? How do engineers actually train them?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>So the main way that systems like ChatGPT are trained is by basically doing autocomplete. We&rsquo;ll feed these systems sort of long text from the web. We&rsquo;ll just have them read through a Wikipedia article word by word. And after it&rsquo;s seen each word, we&rsquo;re going to ask it to guess what word is gonna come next. It&rsquo;s doing this with probability. It&rsquo;s saying, &ldquo;It&rsquo;s a 20 percent chance it&rsquo;s &lsquo;the,&rsquo; 20 percent chance it&rsquo;s &lsquo;of.&rsquo;&rdquo; And then because we know what word actually comes next, we can tell it if it got it right.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>

<p>This takes months, millions of dollars worth of computer time, and then you get a really fancy autocomplete tool. But you want to refine it to act more like the thing that you&rsquo;re actually trying to build, act like a sort of helpful virtual assistant.</p>

<p>There are a few different ways people do this, but the main one is reinforcement learning. The basic idea behind this is you have some sort of test users chat with the system and essentially upvote or downvote responses. Sort of similarly to how you might tell the model, &ldquo;All right, make this word more likely because it&rsquo;s the real next word,&rdquo; with reinforcement learning, you say, &ldquo;All right, make this entire response more likely because the user liked it, and make this entire response less likely because the user didn&rsquo;t like it.&rdquo;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>So let&rsquo;s get into some of the unknowns here. You wrote a <a href="https://cims.nyu.edu/~sbowman/eightthings.pdf">paper</a> all about things we don&rsquo;t know when it comes to systems like ChatGPT. What&rsquo;s the biggest thing that stands out to you?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>So there&rsquo;s two connected big concerning unknowns. The first is that we don&rsquo;t really know what they&rsquo;re doing in any deep sense. If we open up ChatGPT or a system like it and look inside, you just see millions of numbers flipping around a few hundred times a second, and we just have no idea what any of it means. With only the tiniest of exceptions, we can&rsquo;t look inside these things and say, &ldquo;Oh, here&rsquo;s what concepts it&rsquo;s using, here&rsquo;s what kind of rules of reasoning it&rsquo;s using. Here&rsquo;s what it does and doesn&rsquo;t know in any deep way.&rdquo; We just don&rsquo;t understand what&rsquo;s going on here. We built it, we trained it, but we don&rsquo;t know what it&rsquo;s doing.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Very big unknown.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>Yes. The other big unknown that&rsquo;s connected to this is we don&rsquo;t know how to steer these things or control them in any reliable way. We can kind of nudge them to do more of what we want, but the only way we can tell if our nudges worked is by just putting these systems out in the world and seeing what they do. We&rsquo;re really just kind of steering these things almost completely through trial and error.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Can you explain what you mean by &ldquo;we don&rsquo;t know what it&rsquo;s doing&rdquo;? Do we know what normal programs are doing?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>I think the key distinction is that with normal programs, with Microsoft Word, with Deep Blue [IBM&rsquo;s chess playing software], there&rsquo;s a pretty simple explanation of what it&rsquo;s doing. We can say, &ldquo;Okay, this bit of the code inside Deep Blue is computing seven [chess] moves out into the future. If we had played this sequence of moves, what do we think the other player would play?&rdquo; We can tell these stories at most a few sentences long about just what every little bit of computation is doing.&nbsp;</p>

<p>With these neural networks [e.g., the type of AI ChatGPT uses], there&rsquo;s no concise explanation. There&rsquo;s no explanation in terms of things like checkers moves or strategy or what we think the other player is going to do. All we can really say is just there are a bunch of little numbers and sometimes they go up and sometimes they go down. And all of them together seem to do something involving language. We don&rsquo;t have the concepts that map onto these neurons to really be able to say anything interesting about how they behave.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>How is it possible that we don&rsquo;t know how something works and how to steer it if we built it?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>I think the important piece here is that we really didn&rsquo;t build it in any deep sense. We built the computers, but then we just gave the faintest outline of a blueprint and kind of let these systems develop on their own. I think an analogy here might be that we&rsquo;re trying to grow a decorative topiary, a decorative hedge that we&rsquo;re trying to shape. We plant the seed and we know what shape we want and we can sort of take some clippers and clip it into that shape. But that doesn&rsquo;t mean we understand anything about the biology of that tree. We just kind of started the process, let it go, and try to nudge it around a little bit at the end.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Is this what you were talking about in your paper when you wrote that when a lab starts training a new system like ChatGPT they&rsquo;re basically investing in a mystery box?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>Yeah, so if you build a little version of one of these things, it&rsquo;s just learning text statistics. It&rsquo;s just learning that &lsquo;the&rsquo; might come before a noun and a period might come before a capital letter. Then as they get bigger, they start learning to rhyme or learning to program or learning to write a passable high school essay. And none of that was designed in &mdash; you&rsquo;re running just the same code to get all these different levels of behavior. You&rsquo;re just running it longer on more computers with more data.&nbsp;</p>

<p>So basically when a lab decides to invest tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in building one of these neural networks, they don&rsquo;t know at that point what it&rsquo;s gonna be able to do. They can reasonably guess it&rsquo;s gonna be able to do more things than the previous one. But they&rsquo;ve just got to wait and see. We&rsquo;ve got some ability to predict some facts about these models as they get bigger, but not these really important questions about what they can do.&nbsp;</p>

<p>This is just very strange. It means that these companies can&rsquo;t really have product roadmaps. They can&rsquo;t really say, &ldquo;All right, next year we&rsquo;re gonna be able to do this. Then the year after we&rsquo;re gonna be able to do that.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>

<p>And it also plays into some of the concerns about these systems. That sometimes the skill that emerges in one of these models will be something you really don&rsquo;t want. The paper describing GPT-4 talks about how when they first trained it, it could do a decent job of walking a layperson through building a biological weapons lab. And they definitely did not want to deploy that as a product. They built it by accident. And then they had to spend months and months figuring out how to clean it up, how to nudge the neural network around so that it would not actually do that when they deployed it in the real world.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>So I&rsquo;ve heard of the field of interpretability. Which is the science of figuring out how AI works. What does that research look like, and has it produced anything?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>Interpretability is this goal of being able to look inside our systems and say pretty clearly with pretty high confidence what they&rsquo;re doing, why they&rsquo;re doing it. Just kind of how they&rsquo;re set up being able to explain clearly what&rsquo;s happening inside of a system. I think it&rsquo;s analogous to biology for organisms or <a href="https://www.vox.com/neuroscience" data-source="encore">neuroscience</a> for human minds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>But there are two different things people might mean when they talk about interpretability.</p>

<p>One of them is this goal of just trying to sort of figure out the right way to look at what&rsquo;s happening inside of something like ChatGPT figuring out how to kind of look at all these numbers and find interesting ways of mapping out what they might mean, so that eventually we could just look at a system and say something about it.&nbsp;</p>

<p>The other avenue of research is something like interpretability by design. Trying to build systems where by design, every piece of the system means something that we can understand.</p>

<p>But both of these have turned out in practice to be extremely, extremely hard. And I think we&rsquo;re not making critically fast progress on either of them, unfortunately.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>What makes interpretability so hard?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>Interpretability is hard for the same reason that cognitive science is hard. If we ask questions about the human brain, we very often don&rsquo;t have good answers. We can&rsquo;t look at how a person thinks and explain their reasoning by looking at the firings of the neurons.</p>

<p>And it&rsquo;s perhaps even worse for these neural networks because we don&rsquo;t even have the little bits of intuition that we&rsquo;ve gotten from humans. We don&rsquo;t really even know what we&rsquo;re looking for.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Another piece of this is just that the numbers get really big here. There are hundreds of billions of connections in these neural networks. So even if you can find a way that if you stare at a piece of the network for a few hours, we would need every single person on Earth to be staring at this network to really get through all of the work of explaining it.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>And because there&rsquo;s so much we don&rsquo;t know about these systems, I imagine the spectrum of positive and negative possibilities is pretty wide.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Sam Bowman</h3>
<p>Yeah, I think that&rsquo;s right. I think the story here really is about the unknowns. We&rsquo;ve got something that&rsquo;s not really meaningfully regulated, that is more or less useful for a huge range of valuable tasks, we&rsquo;ve got increasingly clear evidence that this technology is improving very quickly in directions that seem like they&rsquo;re aimed at some very, very important stuff and potentially destabilizing to a lot of important institutions.&nbsp;</p>

<p>But we don&rsquo;t know how fast it&rsquo;s moving. We don&rsquo;t know why it&rsquo;s working when it&rsquo;s working.&nbsp;</p>

<p>We don&rsquo;t have any good ideas yet about how to either technically control it or institutionally control it. And if we have no idea what next year&rsquo;s systems are gonna do, and if next year we have no idea what the systems the year after that are gonna do.&nbsp;</p>

<p>It seems very plausible to me that that&rsquo;s going to be the defining story of the next decade or so. How we come to a better understanding of this and how we navigate it.</p>
						]]>
									</content>
			
					</entry>
			<entry>
			
			<author>
				<name>Noam Hassenfeld</name>
			</author>
			
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[How Havana syndrome helps us rethink the brain]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/23629073/havana-syndrome-neurologist-functional-neurological-disorder" />
			<id>https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/23629073/havana-syndrome-neurologist-functional-neurological-disorder</id>
			<updated>2023-03-07T16:06:52-05:00</updated>
			<published>2023-03-07T14:00:00-05:00</published>
			<category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Podcasts" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Science" /><category scheme="https://www.vox.com" term="Unexplainable" />
							<summary type="html"><![CDATA[Ever since 2017, US officials, medical doctors, and psychological researchers have been mystified by a string of &#8220;sonic attacks&#8217;&#8217; that have been reported around the world. Dubbed Havana syndrome after several US personnel at the American embassy in Havana, Cuba, complained of a range of symptoms including headaches, fatigue, dizziness, hearing loss, and nausea, the [&#8230;]]]></summary>
			
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<img alt="" data-caption="Workers at the US Embassy in Havana leave the building on September 29, 2017. | Emily Michot/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images" data-portal-copyright="Emily Michot/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.vox.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24486315/979736180.jpg?quality=90&#038;strip=all&#038;crop=0,0,100,100" />
	<figcaption>
	Workers at the US Embassy in Havana leave the building on September 29, 2017. | Emily Michot/Miami Herald/Tribune News Service via Getty Images	</figcaption>
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<p>Ever since 2017, US officials, medical doctors, and psychological researchers have been mystified by a string of &ldquo;sonic attacks&rsquo;&rsquo; that have been reported around the world. Dubbed <a href="https://www.vox.com/2021/5/1/22414235/senate-intelligence-committee-havana-syndrome-warner-rubio">Havana syndrome</a> after several US personnel at the American embassy in Havana, Cuba, complained of a range of symptoms including headaches, fatigue, dizziness, hearing loss, and nausea, the condition has attracted enduring debate over what could cause it.</p>

<p>Last week, a group of US intelligence agencies released a <a href="https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/press-releases-2023/item/2361-dni-statement-on-the-intelligence-community-assessment-on-ahis">report</a> that all but crossed one high-profile possibility off the list. The report concluded that it is &ldquo;very unlikely&rdquo; that Havana syndrome was caused by a foreign adversary.&nbsp;</p>

<p>But the US intelligence agencies don&rsquo;t think people who suffered through this condition were just making it up. &ldquo;These findings do not call into question the very real experiences and symptoms that our colleagues and their family members have reported,&rdquo; the office of the director of national intelligence wrote in a press statement.&nbsp;</p>

<p>So if it wasn&rsquo;t caused by a weapon from a foreign adversary, and the personnel weren&rsquo;t making it up, what was it?&nbsp;</p>

<p>Some have claimed this is an example of mass <a href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/its-catching/202201/cia-skeptical-havana-syndrome">psychogenic illness</a> &mdash; i.e. outbursts of strange group behavior like &ldquo;<a href="https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736%2809%2960386-X/fulltext">dancing mania</a>.&rdquo; But this may not be the most helpful way of thinking about it, according to Jon Stone, a neurology professor at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&ldquo;When patients hear the word psychogenic, they think that&rsquo;s a doctor accusing me of imagining my symptoms,&rdquo; says Stone. Instead, he says, there&rsquo;s another plausible, arguably overlooked explanation here: a functional neurological disorder, or FND.&nbsp;</p>

<p>An FND is essentially a disorder of brain functioning, but not one caused by an obvious physical problem, like a stroke. It&rsquo;s more about how the brain communicates with itself.</p>

<p>FNDs can be kicked off by something like a fall, a virus, or an episode of vertigo, but then, rather than improving, the brain gets stuck in an extended state of dizziness, nausea, or fogginess. That initial cause can also be stress or anxiety. In diagnosing someone with an FND, neurologists have to make sure the patient isn&rsquo;t suffering from an underlying medical condition like multiple sclerosis or a stroke.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Stone says he often explains FNDs to patients as being like software errors on a computer. &ldquo;If a program crashes on your computer &#8230; would you assume you would find a burnt-out circuit that explained to you why your computer was not working? You wouldn&rsquo;t,&rdquo; he says. &ldquo;There&rsquo;s something going wrong with the software.&rdquo;</p>

<p>FNDs are easily misconstrued, and, according to Stone, are understudied as well. But they&rsquo;re actually quite common. &ldquo;They are probably the second-commonest reason for an outpatient visit to a neurologist,&rdquo; says Stone, who runs a clinic for functional disorders. And while it&rsquo;s not always possible to see an FND on a brain scan, it&rsquo;s possible to see structural changes from FNDs on brain imagery across large groups.&nbsp;</p>

<p>On a 2021 episode of the <a href="https://www.vox.com/unexplainable/"><em>Unexplainable</em></a> podcast, I spoke with Stone. He explained that the growing understanding of FNDs breaks down the tidy categories we like to draw around concepts like psychology and neurology. An FND is certainly not the only explanation for patients with Havana syndrome, but it shows just how powerful and complicated the brain can be.</p>
<iframe loading="lazy" frameborder="0" height="200" src="https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=VMP4538720181" width="100%"></iframe>
<p><em>Below is an excerpt of our conversation, edited for length and clarity. There&rsquo;s much more in the full podcast, so find&nbsp;</em>Unexplainable<em>&nbsp;on&nbsp;</em><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unexplainable/id1554578197"><em><strong>Apple Podcasts</strong></em></a><em><strong>, </strong></em><a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/0PhoePNItwrXBnmAEZgYmt?si=CTtJte1DQDOboF_YQh4pPA&amp;nd=1"><em><strong>Spotify</strong></em></a><strong>, </strong><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/show/unexplainable"><em><strong>Stitcher</strong></em></a><em><strong>, or </strong></em><a href="https://link.chtbl.com/unexppod"><em><strong>wherever you listen.</strong></em></a><em><strong> </strong></em></p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Do you think the idea of an FND can help explain the reports of Havana syndrome?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone<strong> </strong></h3>
<p>I think it should just be on the table, and it should be on the table without prejudice and without assumptions that people seem to be making about it.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>So if we take the idea of a weapon from a foreign power out of the equation, why would people be experiencing these symptoms? What&rsquo;s a possible FND that could explain it?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone<strong> </strong></h3>
<p>I don&rsquo;t know whether there may be an external phenomenon [like a weapon], but &#8230; we see quite commonly, for example, in neurological practice a disorder called PPPD, which stands for persistent postural perceptual dizziness. This is where people have typically had an episode of vertigo from a more easily defined cause. And then instead of recovering in the way that most people do, their brains get stuck as if the acute vertigo is still happening and they feel dizzy all the time.</p>

<p>When anyone gets vertigo or acute dizziness, they normally adapt to it. They lie in bed and they sort of tense their body when they&rsquo;re moving, and then as the vertigo improves they recover to health. But some people maintain those abnormal physiological adaptations and they continue to feel dizzy for weeks, months, and years.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Typically, the symptoms will get worse over time as these Havana syndrome patients&rsquo; did, because the patients got stuck with an abnormal program in their brain that is saying, &ldquo;There is dizziness. You must do this in response to dizziness.&rdquo; This is not a program that the patient can reach into their own brain and change. They are feeling dizzy. You can&rsquo;t suddenly switch that off. But it&rsquo;s a disorder that you can&rsquo;t see on a scan.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>Why would this just be happening to this small targeted community of foreign diplomats?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Well, it might be that there is something causing dizziness. But &#8230; if you take a few thousand people and you ask them about day-to-day physical symptoms like fatigue, concentration, dizziness, those symptoms are incredibly common. Most people feel tired, for example, some of the time. Most people feel a bit dizzy some of the time.&nbsp;</p>

<p>We just did a study of healthy 20-year-olds in Edinburgh and showed that about 20 percent were having symptoms that if they presented to a neurologist, you might say, do you have cognitive problems? Because they&rsquo;re doing things like forgetting where they park their car or putting their keys in the fridge. But because they&rsquo;re 20-year-olds, they&rsquo;re not interpreting those as a problem. They&rsquo;re just saying, &ldquo;Oh, well, I just forgot what my car was.&rdquo; So physical symptoms are present at quite a high rate in the population.</p>

<p>If there is a particular trigger or someone suggesting you have to look very closely for these symptoms, it&rsquo;s possible to get an even higher frequency of symptoms. I think it is possible that a lot of anxiety may be caused [by] the possibility of having a brain injury from a sonic attack. And that that concern is heightening people&rsquo;s vigilance for events that might be consistent with a sonic attack. And then subsequent symptoms that might be consistent with a sonic attack. That does not mean that if they&rsquo;re suffering from that, they have brought it on themself or that they&rsquo;re imagining it.&nbsp;</p>

<p>I think when you&rsquo;re looking at the data, what&rsquo;s very hard to work out is what is the denominator here? How often would you expect diplomats to get episodes of vertigo due to migraine? Due to other other causes? There are many reasons why people feel dizzy.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>But some of the symptoms I&rsquo;ve heard seem a lot more serious than just a migraine. People say that they&rsquo;ve felt different for years. They didn&rsquo;t just have episodes of dizziness, they had persistent dizziness, persistent fatigue, persistent nausea. They had to leave their jobs.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Yeah, so I don&rsquo;t know if [Havana syndrome] is a functional disorder, but if you came to my clinic in Edinburgh, you would watch me interview lots of people who&rsquo;ve been nowhere near an embassy, who have persistent dizziness and cognitive problems, fatigue, which means they have to leave their jobs. And which gets worse year on year. So to me when I read about these patients, I&rsquo;m reading about patients who are just people I would see every time I do a clinic. And yes, perhaps there was a sonic attack causing this syndrome. But these are not unusual illnesses. These are common illnesses, one of the commonest types of illness seen in a neurology clinic.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>If some of this may have happened because people are hearing about brain injuries and becoming more attuned to their own symptoms &mdash; maybe attributing commonly occurring dizziness to something external &mdash; would the patients have needed to be in contact with each other to start worrying? It&rsquo;s been reported that some of the patients didn&rsquo;t know each other and hadn&rsquo;t seen each other.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Well, I would say that all of the patients that I meet with the same disorders haven&rsquo;t met each other either. And they have the same symptoms. People have had these symptoms from different types of functional disorders all over the world. I talk to neurologists in Tanzania and rural Pakistan, it&rsquo;s the same symptoms, often with different interpretations, but the same symptoms and experience.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>So how would we categorize FNDs, then? Are they psychological?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Historically, neurologists have approached these symptoms as psychosomatic or somehow arising from the mind. But in the last 10 or 20 years, a sort of flowering of research in this area has helped to understand these disorders as ones that are at the interface between neurology and psychiatry, where it is reasonable to talk about them as clinical brain disorders.&nbsp;</p>

<p>And there are examples of that that everyone&rsquo;s quite happy with [not referring to as just psychological]. So for example, phantom limb syndrome, a soldier has their leg amputated. But they still have the experience of their leg being there because the map of their leg in their brain is still there. And they experience very distressing phantoms of the limb being there. It&rsquo;s painful. Is that a psychological problem? You wouldn&rsquo;t necessarily say so. You would say, &ldquo;Well, that&rsquo;s a kind of brain problem.&rdquo;&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>That&rsquo;s the exact thing that I&rsquo;m struggling with here. Can you help me define this concretely? What is the difference between psychological and neurological?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Well, what I&rsquo;m saying is that we shouldn&rsquo;t have those boxes, and this is why you&rsquo;re struggling. Because you&rsquo;re trying to think about disorder with a framework which is dualistic, in which you only have these two boxes. Neurological and psychological refer to the same organ. And it can go wrong because of structural change, it can go wrong because it&rsquo;s not functioning properly. And this is why it&rsquo;s so hard, I think, to report these things or help people get their head around, because we have dualistic language. I&rsquo;m a neurologist. It&rsquo;s in my job title. We have psychiatrists. Everything is telling us that there are these two categories, when I think neuroscience is telling us that there aren&rsquo;t.&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>A lot of the patients who have experienced these symptoms have gotten upset when they&rsquo;ve heard people claim that Havana syndrome wasn&rsquo;t caused by an attack, that it could have been psychogenic or an FND. Do you feel like there is a misunderstanding of what an FND is?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Yeah, there&rsquo;s a massive amount of stigma and misunderstanding. And this area, still, it&rsquo;s really very poorly taught, if taught at all at medical school, even though as soon as doctors graduate, they realize that quite a large proportion of their patients have these problems. So we are dealing with a difficult area where people very commonly bring their prejudices to it, their prejudice that if something is psychosomatic, then it&rsquo;s not real. So I do understand why when patients hear the word psychogenic, they think that&rsquo;s a doctor accusing me of imagining my symptoms or being crazy or making them up. I personally don&rsquo;t use the word psychogenic because it suggests that the problem is all psychological.&nbsp;</p>

<p>For me, these disorders [are] actually forcing us to have a whole new way of thinking about what is the brain, what is the mind. People who come to my clinic really can&rsquo;t move their legs, they really are dizzy all the time, they really can&rsquo;t think straight, and they are suffering from these conditions. So for me, someone with dizziness or cognitive problems or movement problems from FND is just as genuine as someone with MS or stroke. But I realize that from a societal view, people just don&rsquo;t have that box in their head. The only boxes they have are you&rsquo;ve got some sort of brain damage or brain disease or it&rsquo;s not really a thing and you&rsquo;re just kind of imagining it.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>There was a team at the University of Pennsylvania who took MRIs of some these patients, and they say they <a href="https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2673168">found</a> results that are consistent with a major brain injury. Would those results eliminate the possibility of an FND?&nbsp;</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>Here we get into more of a pickle because it turns out that even disorders like FND, depression, anxiety, if you look very closely at large groups, you actually do start to see changes in structure as well, because the brain is in some ways a bit like a muscle and it will grow in some bits and shrink in others. People with post-traumatic stress disorder have shrinkage of certain parts of their brain. So brain imaging is really, I&rsquo;m afraid, no way to make arguments that things are neurological or psychological. And that&rsquo;s why we have to abandon those categories.</p>

<p>And it becomes very harmful to [patients] if they&rsquo;re caught in a legal system or in the medical system that&rsquo;s telling them this is all brain damage. Because essentially what that means is this is the way you&rsquo;re going to be forever. There&rsquo;s no possibility of improvement. Your brain is damaged. Now, it&rsquo;s very validating for the patient. But if they do have a functional disorder, it&rsquo;s potentially very harmful because you&rsquo;re denying them the opportunity to consider treatment of their condition through other means.</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Noam Hassenfeld</h3>
<p>So if someone with Havana syndrome came to you, and you did diagnose them as having an FND, what would your treatment be?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Jon Stone</h3>
<p>So if I see a patient who&rsquo;s got the type of symptoms described in Havana syndrome and they fulfill diagnostic criteria for a functional disorder, the treatment involves beginning with explanation. If you&rsquo;re trying to sort out a problem where the patient&rsquo;s own brain is going wrong, you have to help them understand what&rsquo;s happening. To make sense of it as a starting point. That there&rsquo;s a software problem in the brain that we want to try and retrain the brain. Now you can retrain the brain through physical therapy. So if someone has a weak leg or a movement disorder or to some extent dizziness, then physical therapy can be helpful, and we&rsquo;ve learned that those therapies need to be focused on FND as a treatment.</p>

<p>And psychological therapy can also be helpful in retraining the brain, changing patterns of thinking or expectation, the ways that people respond to symptoms when they arise. How do you respond to a particular incident where your memory really let you down? Do you think, &ldquo;Oh my God, that&rsquo;s my brain damage again?&rdquo; Or do you think, &ldquo;Okay, well, actually, 20 percent of the population have that experience from time to time, is it as bad as I think?&rdquo; So broadly speaking, it&rsquo;s physical and psychological rehabilitation that we use to try and help improve these disorders.</p>
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