Episode 2: Green Cotton

Back in the day, Michael Thompson was a local legend in Flint, Michigan. He brought acts like Aretha Franklin to town, and did incredible work to ease vicious gang violence in his community. So when he was sentenced to 42 to 60 years in prison, Flint was shocked, and devastated. His crime? Selling three pounds of marijuana to a police informant.

Michael served the longest sentence for a nonviolent drug charge in the history of Michigan, a state where marijuana use is now legal for all adults. As he navigates life post-release, he’s calling for others left behind in prison to get the same opportunity to walk free through clemency.

Read Episode 2 Full Transcript Below

[AMBIENT NOISE: INSIDE A CAR, THE STREET WHISPERING AGAINST THE TIRES OUTSIDE, THE BLINKER QUIETLY INDICATING FOR A TURN]

MICHAEL: I just wanna show you, show you the arena. It’s coming up on your right here, right here, right here. Right here. That’s the arena right here.

ASHLEY: Oh wow.

ASHLEY [VO]: I’m Ashley C. Ford, and this is Into the Mix, a Ben & Jerry’s podcast about joy and justice, produced with Vox Creative.

MICHAEL: That was where my love is. I loved to put people’s music to life on stage. When I was nine years old, that’s what I told my father.

ASHLEY [VO]: This is Michael Thompson. And that was the arena he used to sell out for legends like Aretha Franklin and Patti LaBelle.

MICHAEL: That was my, my, my mission. Put asses in seats. It’s like a calling. And I was good at it, you know, I was real good at it. I was selling out everywhere, every time I put a production on.

ASHLEY: Tell me a little bit about where we’re going next.

MICHAEL: Carton and Saginaw Street next.

[AMBIENT: CAR DOOR SHUTS]

ASHLEY [VO]: Michael has a story for every street corner in Flint, Michigan.

[AMBIENT SOUND: MEN EXCITEDLY GREETING EACHOTHER. “WHAT’S UP? THERE HE IS. THERE HE IS, BABY!”]

ASHLEY [VO]: And Flint, Michigan has plenty of stories on him.

[MUX: THEME MUSIC IN. SHIMMERING, WITH GROOVY PERCUSSION]

KING JAMES: Oh my God. He used to, he used to call me up and say, how many you got? He said, I don’t know, about 25 or 30. Man. He had the place almost full of people!

[AMBIENT LAUGHTER FADES INTO THE BACKGROUND AS THE ROOM REACTS TO KING JAMES’ STORIES]

ASHLEY [VO]: But if you ask folks what they know about Michael Thompson, they might look at you a little funny.

KEVIN WILSON: When I heard Michael Thompson, I didn’t know who that was. Laughter.

ASHLEY [VO]: That’s because he’s Meeko.

MICHAEL: Tell him Meeko is here.

[AMBIENT SOUND: DOOR CREAKS OPEN]

KEVIN: Hey, hey, Meeko!

ASHLEY [VO]: His old production company – Meeko’s Productions. The old car wash on Saginaw Street: Meeko’s. Meeko’s Arcade. Meeko’s Pool Hall. His stamp is all over this place. And according to everyone we met on the cold January day we spent getting to know Meeko and Flint, Meeko was the man.

COMMUNITY MEMBER: You might not remember, but I met you about 40 years ago right? And we were selling raffle tickets.

[AMBIENT CONVERSATION CONTINUES IN BACKGROUND: “They were a dollar a ticket. And I came in there and I asked you to buy a ticket…”]

ASHLEY [VO]: All day long, we bumped into people who knew Meeko from back in the day, even if he didn’t remember them.

COMMUNITY MEMBER: And you was like, “uh, buy 20 tickets from him.” And then you gave the tickets back to us after you bought ‘em. You know, we signed ‘em. You said “just give ‘em to somebody.” That was over 40 years ago. I never will forget that.

[AMBIENT CONVERSATION CONTINUES IN BACKGROUND: “Wow. Like I said, you wouldn’t remember it, but I remember it. I’m 64 years old now. Yeah. I think I was 21 then. Yeah. He impacted a lot of people. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.”]

ASHLEY [VO]: The particulars might change, but every story is the same: Meeko turned hard work into good fortune, and good fortune into generosity.

RASHAWNDA LITTLES: If you tell him, “I’m cold, I’m freezing, I don’t have money to buy a coat,” guess what? You’re gonna go get that coat, ‘cuz he’s gonna get it for you.

ASHLEY [VO]: That’s Rashawnda, Meeko’s eldest daughter.

RASHAWNDA: He was a good father. He would do my hair. You know, a lot of men, you don’t find doing little girls’ hair. And I’m telling you, it was neat. And those were good memories, you know? Um, apparently I didn’t get a chance to have that much longer.

ASHLEY: Mm.

[MUX IN: CRACKLING LOW-FI BEAT WITH HAUNTING PERCUSSION]

ASHLEY [VO]: In 1994, Meeko was arrested for selling three pounds of marijuana to a police informant - a person he knew well. Loved, even.

Then, guns were found in his home. And even though no guns were used in the deal at all… it didn’t matter. His sentence was enhanced under repeat offender laws. And he was given 42 to 60 years in prison.

Meeko ended up serving the longest sentence for a non-violent drug charge in Michigan’s history.

He’s just one of the thousands of victims of the War on Drugs... a war waged in the name of reducing harm in our communities.

But harm is its greatest legacy. Because when people like Meeko go to prison… it destroys entire families. Entire neighborhoods.

Legal marijuana is projected to be a 43 billion dollar industry in the next two years. And so we have to ask ourselves, now: what does justice look like for people like Meeko?

[MUX REVERB OUT]

ASHLEY [VO]: There are 10 recreational marijuana dispensaries within a 10 minute drive of Meeko’s house.

These dispensaries are sleek – well designed, modern. Places with real curb appeal, advertising edibles, vape cartridges and pre-rolled joints… delivered right to your front door! One place we pass is selling T-shirts that say “the Future is Dope” across the chest.

Michigan legalized recreational marijuana in 2018. Sales in the state hit the one billion dollar mark in 2021 - the year Meeko was finally released from prison, after 25 years.

So it’s easy to understand why some people are calling marijuana “green cotton.” As in, a product that could change the financial outlook for families many generations into the future.

CYNTHIA ROSEBERRY: I have to tell you, when you said the new green cotton, I got chills.

ASHLEY [VO]: Cynthia Roseberry is the acting director of the Justice Division at the ACLU.

CYNTHIA: I immediately drew this parallel between how cotton… how the industry benefited the white community and America on the backs of Black people and how this new green cotton does the same without restorative justice, right?

ASHLEY [VO]: The war on drugs is a shameful chapter in American history.

It’s cost taxpayers one trillion dollars, and counting. But it’s not over: between 2010 and 2018, there were more than six million cannabis-related arrests in the United States.

And despite similar rates of lifetime cannabis use, the ACLU found that a Black person is almost FOUR times more likely to be arrested for cannabis possession than a white person.

Another way of looking at that? 716 arrests for every 100,000 Black people. That number drops to 192 for white people.

CYNTHIA: The consequences have been just devastating, uh, to Black communities. And it was intended to be that way.

ASHLEY [VO]: President Nixon famously declared drug abuse as “public enemy number one” when the War on Drugs officially launched in 1971. But behind that thin veneer of concern, was racist motivation.

CYNTHIA: We know now that the harm actually landed where it was intended to land. We know that under President Nixon, one of his aides has admitted, John Ehrlichman has admitted that by criminalizing cannabis and heroin, for example, that they could arrest the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement, raid their homes, break up their meetings is what he said, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. And he says, we knew we were lying about, you know, this war on drugs and the aim. And so fast forward, we see in America that there’s blatant racial disparities in drug related arrests.

ASHLEY [VO]: Marijuana is still classified as a “Schedule I” drug. In the eyes of the government, it carries the highest potential for abuse, and the lowest potential for medicinal value. But for a long time… evidence has indicated that’s simply not true.

[MUX IN: HAND DRUMS, RESONANT STRINGS]

ASHLEY [VO]: In 1968, President Nixon commissioned a study on the harms of marijuana from Raymond P. Schafer, a conservative Republican governor and a real “tough on crime” type. Four years and 24 million dollars later, Shaffer delivered the most comprehensive report on cannabis use in United States history.

It debunked every claim that marijuana use led to criminal behavior, aggression, or delinquency. Therefore, Schaffer wrote, “the drug cannot be said to constitute a significant threat to the public safety.”

Nixon buried the report.

Despite the Schafer report recommending the decriminalization of marijuana, laws in predominantly Black states came down viciously on cannabis use.

In Georgia at the time – just fifty years ago – you could be sentenced to life in prison for trafficking to a minor. And that was for a first offense. Repeat offenders got the death penalty.

In Louisiana, you didn’t get a second chance.

You wanna talk about harm?

[MUX: ECHOES OUT]

Let’s talk about harm.

CYNTHIA: The harm is so vast, that we don’t know all of the harm, right?

So on any given day in America, nearly 140,000 people are behind bars for drug possession.

You think about Michael being in prison, he ultimately, uh, spent 25 years in prison. During that time, family members died, right?

The iPad was created, Bluetooth technology was created, right? So many things were created, it’s like putting people on an alien planet right when they come home. So now their skills haven’t been honed or increased. They don’t have that family connection. They’re likely more impoverished than they were, and we haven’t even started to unpack the trauma!

ASHLEY [VO]: The American Bar Association has counted 45 thousand distinct collateral consequences of a conviction.

The ripple effects are devastating, and impact everything from housing and public benefits, to your ability to get a loan to start a new business, or even vote! And then, there are the families who are left behind.

RASHAWNDA: You know, my mother at the time, single mom trying to do her best to take care of her children while he’s incarcerated. And the only thing I had looking forward to was the letters and the wonderful cards he would make. Oh my God. You should see these cards. I have all of them. Him just speaking from his heart and telling me he gonna be home soon.

And you know, in all those years, I looked forward to him coming home. And then at one point I was like… they probably never gonna let Daddy out ‘cause now it’s going on 20 years. Is he ever gonna come home? And, you know, all I had was his word. That’s all I had left.

ASHLEY: And you believed him.

RASHAWNDA: Mm-hmm. No doubt. It was times when it was hard because you don’t hear from ‘em for a period of time. So you think the worst. Being there. You know, so those years for me was very difficult. Very difficult.

ASHLEY: Yeah, I get that. I understand that. My dad was in prison for 30 years, and the letters, you know, it was what got me through. The “I love you so much, you’re my favorite person.” You know, those were kind of the basis of my self-esteem for a long time was that, you know, I knew my dad loved me. I knew he liked me. I knew he thought I was amazing.

RASHAWNDA: Mm-hmm.

ASHLEY: Even if he wasn’t right there. Um, I had that feeling, that belief in myself through him.

ASHLEY [VO]: Meeko wasn’t supposed to get out of prison until 2038.

MICHAEL: 2038.

See, what Michigan does, they stack the charges on you. And when they stack the charges on you, uh, they take a marijuana charge and then they’ll go in there and find something in your house, and find some gun charge, and then they stack that on it and they’ll forget about the marijuana charge even though the gun had nothing to do with the, the marijuana whatsoever. But that’s what they do to people of color only.

And that’s what they did on me. And then I ended up with 42 to 60 years, when the initial charge wasn’t nothing but four to seven years.

ASHLEY: It’s a lifetime.

[MUX IN: EMOTIONAL PIANO, WITH BUZZY STRINGS]

ASHLEY [VO]: As Cynthia describes it, officials were competing to appear the toughest on crime. But 50 years later, we see that the war on drugs made Americans – particularly Black Americans – less safe.

CYNTHIA: When we have people who are incarcerated, uh, disparately, like from the Black community, that decreases our, our faith in our criminal legal system, right? Which is a bedrock of democracy.

It also decimates a particular community. So you take, um, many people out of one particular community, many folks who could be paying taxes, who could be parenting their children. I think there’s an estimate that there’s over 2 million children with incarcerated parents in America. Um, and the statistics show that if you have an incarcerated parent, you’re likelier yourself to be incarcerated. Um, it creates a lot of mental health instances in the community because of the trauma that comes back from prison.

In fact, it harms folks when they’re incarcerated and we return them to the community worse than they were before. How is that helping public safety when, um, we know that many of the sort of low level financial crimes are, are poverty motivated, right? Theft and things like that. So you are increasing, this, uh, distrust of the system while at the same time increasing the circumstances where folks might have some adverse contact with the criminal legal system moving ahead.

[MUX REVERBS OUT]

ASHLEY [VO]: While many are celebrating the progress we’ve made toward decriminalizing marijuana, wearing T-shirts that say “The Future is Dope…” as many as 40,000 Americans are still behind bars for cannabis-related offenses.

So: who is that future for?

And how powerful is our progress really, if people like Meeko – who’ve spent lifetimes in prison already for a product that’s now legal – are being asked to stay patient while our policies play catch up?

ASHLEY: What was it like, ‘cause I, I honestly can’t imagine… what was it like to learn that Michigan had legalized marijuana while you were serving literal decades for selling it?

MICHAEL: Well, at first I was super happy.

ASHLEY: Mmm.

MICHAEL: I was super happy. I was super happy ‘cause I thought I was gonna get released right away. And, uh, it didn’t happen like that. I was super happy. I was saying, “wow, we all finna be free!” And, it wasn’t gonna happen like that. And I had to fight even after marijuana was legal, you know, I had to still fight to get out.

So I’m just thinking... How many more Michael Thompsons is in there?

They need help and they dying in there.

What you still got them in prison for?

[MUX IN: STRONG UPRIGHT BASS AND SIMPLE PIANO]

ASHLEY [VO]: In 2020, a way out of prison came into view for Meeko: clemency.

CYNTHIA: Clemency is this powerful tool to say, I was wrong, we were wrong, you deserve a second chance, please come home. Please start again.

ASHLEY [VO]: When we come back, the story of Meeko’s release, his hopes for the future, and the best tool we have today in the fight for restorative justice in the war on drugs.

[MIDROLL AD]

[MUX IN: LOW DRONE AND SIMPLE PIANO KEYS]

[AMBIENT SOUND: NEWS TAPE MONTAGE]

ANCHOR 1: “68 year old Michael Thompson, serving 40 to 60 years in prison for selling three pounds of marijuana and having guns in his home.”

ANCHOR 2: “If not for a commutation from Governor Whitmer, it would be at least 2038 before his potential parole.”

ANCHOR 3: “Finally today at the crack of dawn, four A.M., the prison doors squeaked open. Thompson hugged his daughters and supporters, and said he’s got work to do to help other non-violent offenders like himself.”

AMBIENT: Footsteps crunching on snow, camera shutters clicking, people cheering and clapping.

MICHAEL, emotional: “I wasn’t expecting all this man. This is, this is beautiful.”

ASHLEY [VO]: On January 28th, 2021, Meeko walked out of the Muskegon Correctional Facility, into the arms of his family, after 25 years.

[MUX OUT]

RASHAWNDA: It was so cold that morning. Like frost-bit cold. I’m telling you, I didn’t feel a bit of that coldness at that time. Because my focus was on him just walking straight out that door.

ASHLEY [VO]: Rashawnda, Meeko’s daughter.

RASHAWNDA: We embraced and just hearing him talk just brought tears. You know, because, you know, he’s my father, but it was something near missing, you know what I mean? Because I was, I was trying to piece the puzzle together.

ASHLEY: Yeah.

Because he, you know, I had to tell him who was who. I said, Daddy, this is Princess. This is your granddaughter, Armani... you know I’m pointing!

And it was just like, we got some work to do.

ASHLEY: It’s really hard to describe. What it’s like to have a parent get out of prison and to have that first moment of contact. That first hug, that first “hi”, that’s on the outside where you’re not being watched. Where there’s, um… you don’t even know if everybody can feel it right away, but it’s, you’re free. Because when they’re locked up, part of you is locked up, too. And so when they get free, it’s like, oh, we’re, we’re both free now. What is this?

RASHAWNDA: Mm-hmm.

ASHLEY: How do we figure this out? What does this look like?

ASHLEY [VO]: That day came almost exactly a year after Meeko’s petition for clemency was filed.

After one year, hundreds of thousands of letters, emails and calls from supporters, celebrities like Kim Kardashian and Snoop Dog mobilizing their millions of followers, elected officials highlighting his case on the campaign trail, and Michigan’s Attorney General personally vouching for his case… Meeko’s petition hit Governor Gretchen Whitmer’s desk.

And she signed it.

CYNTHIA: Justice shouldn’t feel like a lottery. Justice should feel like what happens every day.

The fact that he was plucked up and taken out shouldn’t be miraculous, but it is. Because clemency should be a normal part of what, uh, people who serve us do, right? It should be like anything else we do. We look back and say, Hmm, what did we get wrong and how can we correct it?

[MUX IN: SWIRLING HORNS OVER A LO-FI HIP HOP BEAT. A PIANO JOINS IN]

ASHLEY [VO]: Late in 2022, President Biden made a presidential proclamation, pardoning federal convictions for simple marijuana possession. Initially it was celebrated as a huge step in the direction of progress. A move that could release thousands from prison, and begin to right the wrongs of the war on drugs.

Except that... no one is actually in federal prison for simple marijuana possession. Those sentences all happen at the state level. Biden’s move towards mass clemency might not get anyone out of jail sooner, but it will reduce parole sentences, and some of those other collateral consequences.

It also says something important about where we need to look in the fight for restorative justice: the states.

Your governor holds the key to freeing more Meekos.

[MUX FADE OUT]

CYNTHIA: In many of the systems, a petition has to be filed in the individualized look for clemency. And that petition is um, a cry for release. You know, that documents what the person might have accomplished while they were incarcerated and might give some background on the person’s life and what led them to the circumstances of their arrest, prosecution, and conviction.

Even if everybody got a petition, and we know they don’t, right, it would take the length of their sentence to review everybody.

The categorical approach, on the other hand, says, listen, we got it wrong in this war on drugs, and we should not have incarcerated people for marijuana for such a long period of time.

So what we’re gonna do is go back and make it right. We’re gonna look at that entire group of people who were incarcerated for possession of marijuana, for example, as President Biden did. And we’re gonna say, we’re granting you clemency because we never should have done this in the first place.

ASHLEY [VO]: The positive impact of clemency doesn’t start and stop with the mere fact of being released from prison.

CYNTHIA: We know, for example, that in Michigan, we saw people’s income rise more than 20% within one year of having their records cleared. That’s significant.

ASHLEY [VO]: But only six percent of people who were eligible in Michigan to have their records cleared, actually did.

That’s because in many cases, people have to navigate the long, expensive path to pardon on their own. Hiring lawyers, navigating petitions, figuring out if they’re even eligible in the first place – it’s all on them.

Experts call it the “second chance gap.” And it’s why the categorical approach to clemency is so important.

CYNTHIA: In some instances it happens because people just aren’t aware that they are eligible to have their records cleared. In some instances, especially in communities like Black and brown communities that have been targeted for so long, it means that you have to have contact with the system again. And the contact has always been so negative and harmful that there’s not a trust that, you know, applying for this expungement or this clearing of your record might not further harm you!

[MUX IN: GENTLE PIANO]

ASHLEY [VO]: So... back to the idea of green cotton.

Less than 2% of marijuana businesses in this country are Black owned.

Narrowing the second chance gap is the difference between legalized marijuana becoming another deeply harmful industry rooted in racism, and one that has the potential to empower families of color to build generational wealth.

CYNTHIA: You know, I can’t help but think of James Baldwin who said “to be Black and relatively conscious in America is to be enraged,” to be in a constant state of being enraged.

Um, and I’m enraged by it, especially when, one, I know that the origin of the war on drugs, um, had this aim right to create this harm in the community. And then it also was based on the idea that marijuana was harmful. And so now that, you know, there’s been some evolution in thinking and, um, marijuana has been legalized in places, there’s still this idea that the people who were most harmed by the system cannot participate in the system.

ASHLEY [VO]: Reducing that second chance gap will take not only bold moves towards categorical clemency, but social equity legislation aimed at lowering the barrier of entry into the legal marijuana industry for people directly impacted by the war on drugs.

It’s about getting them out of jail. And it’s about getting them the opportunities they deserve afterwards.

As of 2021, more than twenty states had passed some form of social equity or record expungement legislation – or both – relating to drug convictions.

[MUX OUT]

MICHAEL: When I was leaving prison, they was happy. I mean, they was, they was happy, man. And yeah, I’m leaving at four o’clock in the morning. Just a sudden thing, and they still was up waiting for me to leave. And they was shaking my hand, hugging me and telling me, “Meeko, don’t forget about me man. You know my case, man. You know who I am, you know what I’m about.” And then they say, “man, go out there and tell the truth, man, about this prison shit.” That was the exact words.

“Go out there and tell the truth.” And uh, that’s what I been doing. Because that’s what I been hearing in my head. The voices, that’s what I call ‘em. The voices that I be hearing in my head. So after 25 years, you know, the least I can do is hear the voices. And do something about it.

[MUX IN: SHIMMERING PIANO AND RESONANT STRINGS]

ASHLEY [VO]: On the morning of his release, some of Meeko’s first words to the press were a powerful call to action: it’s time to stop talking, and start doing something about prison reform. About helping the thousands of good people, people just like him, “men of honor,” to use his words, who are still behind bars.

He made good on his promise, and started the Michael Thompson Clemency Project almost immediately after he stepped out of Muskegon.

MICHAEL: The Michael Thompson Clemency Project is real.

It is more real than any organization I have ever met. Uh, because of what I feel and what I told them when I first started Michael Thompson Clemency. I told ‘em that, uh, I’m not for no games and I ain’t for no potlucks.

Uh, this meet every month and don’t get nothing accomplished. I’m not playing, I’m out here for real. I’m trying to get some people outta here.

ASHLEY: What are your hopes for the people you know are still in prison? When you have a moment of being able to have a wish for them, a hope for them, a goal for them, desire for them. What is it?

MICHAEL: What I wish for them is the very best. Just like, I’m pretty sure a lot of ‘em wish me the very best. I wanna see, uh, those individuals get out and be a productive citizen, and do some great things. And then I can say, look, I told you.

[MUX OUT]

ASHLEY: What is your life now?

MICHAEL: You, gotta understand 25 years. What do you expect my life to be like? I ain’t gonna be rich. Uh, nothing like that.

ASHLEY: Mm-hmm.

MICHAEL: I ain’t gonna know a lot of things like the people who been out here all this time. I don’t even know nothing about the telephones.

Little kids know more about it than I do. I mean it’s an embarrassment, the way my life is. Where my life is. To me, it’s an embarrassment. But what makes it not an embarrassment is the Michael Thompson Clemency thing that has been formed. That’s real. That’s real. And I just wanna see somebody receive the same thing I received.

ASHLEY: What are you looking forward to?

MICHAEL: I’m looking forward to building an empire for my family. ‘Cause you know I got all these young kids and grandkids and all that. And they look at me in my eyes and you know, they don’t know anything about me going through 25 years in prison. They don’t care nothing about that. Uh, it’s like, “what have you done for me lately?” type thing. *Laughs*

ASHLEY: *Laughs*

MICHAEL: *Laughing* They don’t care nothing about that.

ASHLEY: Mm-hmm. *Laughs*

MICHAEL: But when you can do something for ‘em, they give you the beautifulest smile. And the beautifulest “thank you.” That’s what I want.

ASHLEY: Mm. I love that.

[MUX IN: WHISTLES, HUMS, WARM PIANO]

MICHAEL: And another thing. One day… I hope to have me a horse farm.

ASHLEY: Gosh. That sounds amazing. I love horses.

I, I love just to see that white, picket fence and just love, just to see ‘em run, see ‘em walk around. It, it is so peaceful.

[MUX LINGERS: SIMPLE, HAPPY, WARM]

You can learn more about The Michael Thompson Clemency Project at MTClemency.com.

And to help Meeko get more people out of prison: pick up the phone, and call on your governor to grant clemency to those wronged by the war on drugs.

[MUX TRANSITION INTO THEME]

—----

Into the Mix is a Ben & Jerry’s Podcast produced by Vox Creative.

This episode was written by Martha D. Salley.

A special thank you to Michael – excuse me, MEEKO Thompson, Rashawnda Littles, Marshall Clabeaux, Mike McCurdy, and DeeDee Kirkwood for this opportunity.

We’re also grateful to Cynthia Roseberry for her time. Cynthia wishes to express that the views shared in this episode are her own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the ACLU.

If you’d like to learn more about the intersection of the war on drugs and the legal cannabis industry, pick up a copy of Waiting to Inhale by Akwasi Owusu-Bempah and Tahira Rehmatullah.

The Vox Creative team includes Executive Producer Annu Subramanian, Lead Producers Martha D. Salley and Bethany Denton, Production Manager Taylor Henry, and Production Coordinator Jessica Bae.

The team also includes Ariana Jiffo, senior manager of creative services, Design Director Brittany Falussy, and post-production stars Greg Russ and Andrew Hammond.

Kyle Neal engineered this episode. Original music by Israel Tutson.

The news footage you heard in the second half of the show comes from WNEM TV5.

Thanks to AJ Gutierrez for his production support, as well as Adam Pressley, Gianluca Petrazzi and Tiara Darnell.

The Ben & Jerry’s team includes Jay Tandon, Jay Curley, Sanjana Mahesh, and Chris Miller.

I’m Ashley C Ford. Thank you for listening.